Are new Cars too Sophisticated?
Discussion
AS an example taken from the Ford website:
'The New Focus is one of the most technologically advanced cars on the road. It’s equipped with an array of state-of-the-art systems and features'
With the trend towards smaller turbo'd engines, increasing number of gadgets and reliance on electronics, greater legislation etc etc, would you want to own one of the current generation of cars out of warranty?
Are the new cars of today going to be viable in 10 years / 100,000+ miles time with potentially massive service and repair costs, or we will be forced away from older cars in the future. Current Diesel engines seem to attract a lot of horror stories regarding failure.
Or do you think reliability is forever improving and the increased sophistication is only of benefit to the motorist?
'The New Focus is one of the most technologically advanced cars on the road. It’s equipped with an array of state-of-the-art systems and features'
With the trend towards smaller turbo'd engines, increasing number of gadgets and reliance on electronics, greater legislation etc etc, would you want to own one of the current generation of cars out of warranty?
Are the new cars of today going to be viable in 10 years / 100,000+ miles time with potentially massive service and repair costs, or we will be forced away from older cars in the future. Current Diesel engines seem to attract a lot of horror stories regarding failure.
Or do you think reliability is forever improving and the increased sophistication is only of benefit to the motorist?
well the major expense with restoring an older car is the rust, which wont be nearly as bad with a modern car. Most components which are electrical can be replaced, or re-designed from scratch. Its likely to be things like trim which may suffer worst and be the problem in the future.
Yes.
Although it's not 'that new' really, anything from the last 8 years would scare most people who are used to servicing their own cars.
I need an economical diesel car which is suitable for a small family and cheap to run. It also needs to be interesting because I'm a petrol head (diesel head?)
I've looked at loads of cars.
The most common of which is the VAG cars, the Skoda Octavia, Seat Leon / Toledo, VW Golf / Bora etc. These are complex cars, but they are reliable. Unfortunately, they are also incredibly dull and common.
Other similar diesels are just as frightening. Dual-mass flywheels, diesel particulate filters (or FAP, if you're of French persuasion), various electronic gizmo's which can all go wrong, all at around 60-75,000 miles - the sort of mileage car I'm looking to buy!
But it goes back further than that, my dad suggested a 406 HDi Coupé. These have so many electrical 'features' I don't think the idea is worth entertaining. The seats don't just fold forward to allow access to the rear bench, oh no. They tilt and slide on motors. The windows wind down slightly when you pull the door handle. All this is going to go wrong at some point I reckon!
With new cars getting more advanced owners will be forced into sticking with main dealers for servicing and repairs. This is going to be costly, but I also believe it will significantly reduce the 'service life' of future cars. Second-hand buyers won't be able to afford to repair major problems and cars will become worthless, very quickly.
Although it's not 'that new' really, anything from the last 8 years would scare most people who are used to servicing their own cars.
I need an economical diesel car which is suitable for a small family and cheap to run. It also needs to be interesting because I'm a petrol head (diesel head?)
I've looked at loads of cars.
The most common of which is the VAG cars, the Skoda Octavia, Seat Leon / Toledo, VW Golf / Bora etc. These are complex cars, but they are reliable. Unfortunately, they are also incredibly dull and common.
Other similar diesels are just as frightening. Dual-mass flywheels, diesel particulate filters (or FAP, if you're of French persuasion), various electronic gizmo's which can all go wrong, all at around 60-75,000 miles - the sort of mileage car I'm looking to buy!
But it goes back further than that, my dad suggested a 406 HDi Coupé. These have so many electrical 'features' I don't think the idea is worth entertaining. The seats don't just fold forward to allow access to the rear bench, oh no. They tilt and slide on motors. The windows wind down slightly when you pull the door handle. All this is going to go wrong at some point I reckon!
With new cars getting more advanced owners will be forced into sticking with main dealers for servicing and repairs. This is going to be costly, but I also believe it will significantly reduce the 'service life' of future cars. Second-hand buyers won't be able to afford to repair major problems and cars will become worthless, very quickly.
Some of these problems result from the fact that we are in a transition phase. Things that were once analogue are being redesigned for the digital age. As far as cars are concerned, that transition is still in its infancy. Given time, non-specialist garages will become more adept at diagnosing and resolving some of these issues. At the moment, some garages are struggling. The place my family have used for years are brilliant when it comes to identifying and fixing what you might call 'traditional' problems but they freely admit to being stumped by some of the newer technologies - CAN-BUS in particular is giving them problems.
On the positive side, the internet is a great asset. Mechanics quite often have the skills but not necessarily the specialist knowledge to fix some faults. Being able to tap into the specialist knowledge on various owner's forums is good news for everyone - the garage learn the best way to approach a task and can free up ramp-space quickly and the the owners pay less in labour charges.
On the positive side, the internet is a great asset. Mechanics quite often have the skills but not necessarily the specialist knowledge to fix some faults. Being able to tap into the specialist knowledge on various owner's forums is good news for everyone - the garage learn the best way to approach a task and can free up ramp-space quickly and the the owners pay less in labour charges.
Wafflesmk2 said:
haynes
Original Poster
You're just mad that nobody buys your manuals anymore.
Exactly what I thought.Original Poster
You're just mad that nobody buys your manuals anymore.
That or he is concerned that by the time his team of two guys get the required "specialist" tools perform the strip and rebuild whilst photographing every part and writing useful tips the car will be have been superseded.
Yes, I think from an objective point of view modern cars are increasingly overly sophisticated and heavy. It's what the consumer has been convinced they want though, it surely all stems from marketing.
Modern cars are going to die off quicker once they've reached the end of their service life, I don't see people finding it as easy to maintain cars with complex electrical and mechanical systems and sealed-for-life this, that and the other.
Modern cars are going to die off quicker once they've reached the end of their service life, I don't see people finding it as easy to maintain cars with complex electrical and mechanical systems and sealed-for-life this, that and the other.
To be fair, this "issue" has been around for a LONG time. In 20 years time, people will be saying how simple cars of 2012 are.
After all, We're now saying cars from the noughties are too complex.
We were saying 10 years ago that cars from the 80s are too complex.
We were saying 20 years ago that cars from the 70s are too complex.
We were saying 30 years ago that cars from the 60s are too complex.
We were saying 40 years ago that cars from the 50s are too complex.
We were saying 50 years ago that cars from the 40s are too complex.
etc.
People learn and adapt. For example, I have an ODB2 reader that only cost about £20, this saves a lot time/money diagnosing faults. Some other mechanical knowledge helps too! Stuff like this wasn't cheaply available 10 years ago.
Add that to the presence of the internet and forums etc., "cheap" parts suppliers (ECP etc.), cheaper tools (halfords etc.) there's never been a better time to be a DIYer. Yes, cars are more complex than they were but so is our knowledge and tools. With the internet and available service manuals, we can go in with more open eyes.
I think one of the main issues is "sealed" units that can't easily be repaired and thus need replacing, a PITA if the diagnostics aren't precise or incorrect!
After all, We're now saying cars from the noughties are too complex.
We were saying 10 years ago that cars from the 80s are too complex.
We were saying 20 years ago that cars from the 70s are too complex.
We were saying 30 years ago that cars from the 60s are too complex.
We were saying 40 years ago that cars from the 50s are too complex.
We were saying 50 years ago that cars from the 40s are too complex.
etc.
People learn and adapt. For example, I have an ODB2 reader that only cost about £20, this saves a lot time/money diagnosing faults. Some other mechanical knowledge helps too! Stuff like this wasn't cheaply available 10 years ago.
Add that to the presence of the internet and forums etc., "cheap" parts suppliers (ECP etc.), cheaper tools (halfords etc.) there's never been a better time to be a DIYer. Yes, cars are more complex than they were but so is our knowledge and tools. With the internet and available service manuals, we can go in with more open eyes.
I think one of the main issues is "sealed" units that can't easily be repaired and thus need replacing, a PITA if the diagnostics aren't precise or incorrect!
Edited by Dracoro on Friday 9th March 13:24
Dracoro said:
To be fair, this "issue" has been around for a LONG time. In 20 years time, people will be saying how simple cars of 2012 are.
After all, We're now saying cars from the noughties are too complex.
We were saying 10 years ago that cars from the 80s are too complex.
We were saying 20 years ago that cars from the 70s are too complex.
We were saying 30 years ago that cars from the 60s are too complex.
We were saying 40 years ago that cars from the 50s are too complex.
We were saying 50 years ago that cars from the 40s are too complex.
etc.
People learn and adapt. For example, I have an ODB2 reader that only cost about £20, this saves a lot time/money diagnosing faults. Some other mechanical knowledge helps too! Stuff like this wasn't cheaply available 10 years ago.
Add that to the presence of the internet and forums etc., "cheap" parts suppliers (ECP etc.), cheaper tools (halfords etc.) there's never been a better time to be a DIYer. Yes, cars are more complex than they were but so is our knowledge and tools. With the internet and available service manuals, we can go in with more open eyes.
I think one of the main issues is "sealed" units that can't easily be repaired and thus need replacing, a PITA if the diagnostics aren't precise or incorrect!
This. When the E38 7 series came out its was deemed too complex, now, it's not that bad. Same with S classes of that era. They're getting more complex but people adapt. After all, We're now saying cars from the noughties are too complex.
We were saying 10 years ago that cars from the 80s are too complex.
We were saying 20 years ago that cars from the 70s are too complex.
We were saying 30 years ago that cars from the 60s are too complex.
We were saying 40 years ago that cars from the 50s are too complex.
We were saying 50 years ago that cars from the 40s are too complex.
etc.
People learn and adapt. For example, I have an ODB2 reader that only cost about £20, this saves a lot time/money diagnosing faults. Some other mechanical knowledge helps too! Stuff like this wasn't cheaply available 10 years ago.
Add that to the presence of the internet and forums etc., "cheap" parts suppliers (ECP etc.), cheaper tools (halfords etc.) there's never been a better time to be a DIYer. Yes, cars are more complex than they were but so is our knowledge and tools. With the internet and available service manuals, we can go in with more open eyes.
I think one of the main issues is "sealed" units that can't easily be repaired and thus need replacing, a PITA if the diagnostics aren't precise or incorrect!
Edited by Dracoro on Friday 9th March 13:24
One problem with modern cars is that even a minor fault can require the replacement of a large ( and expensive ) subassembly - they just aren't designed to be repaired cheaply at individual component level, just replaced.
They also seem to be designed to make even the simplest jobs difficult to do. If you're buying a new car try asking the salesman to change a headlight and sidelight bulb, without the help of a mechanic, in under 30 mins. If he can't ( or won't ) then walk away
They also seem to be designed to make even the simplest jobs difficult to do. If you're buying a new car try asking the salesman to change a headlight and sidelight bulb, without the help of a mechanic, in under 30 mins. If he can't ( or won't ) then walk away
I can remember even ten years ago, people were moaning that electronic fuel injection meant that there would be no more classic cars because it couldn't be maintained at home.
the skill set of the home mechanic changes to match the challenge. But yes, modern cars are becoming a bit silly, with computer systems designed to at least partially mask design shortcomings.
I.e. We made the windows one inch tall because it looks sporty, but since nobody can see out of the car any more we've fitted blind spot sensors, front and rear reversing sensors, and automatic braking systems.
the skill set of the home mechanic changes to match the challenge. But yes, modern cars are becoming a bit silly, with computer systems designed to at least partially mask design shortcomings.
I.e. We made the windows one inch tall because it looks sporty, but since nobody can see out of the car any more we've fitted blind spot sensors, front and rear reversing sensors, and automatic braking systems.
Willy Nilly said:
Aside from the stuff we have to have like the emissions regs stuff, I often wonder why people think they need all these toys on cars.
Air conditioning = great
automatic dual zone climate control = a load of old b
ks.
Disagree with that, dual zone climate control is brilliant. I prefer my car relatively warm (23ish) whereas my gf prefers it much cooler. With dual zone we're both happy. Air conditioning = great
automatic dual zone climate control = a load of old b
ks. haynes said:
Are the new cars of today going to be viable in 10 years / 100,000+ miles time with potentially massive service and repair costs, or we will be forced away from older cars in the future. Current Diesel engines seem to attract a lot of horror stories regarding failure.
Ooh, a lot of people have been saying this for a long time. Since the introduction of hydraulic brakes, I think.Computer Technology moves at just about the fastest rate of anything and in the big scale of things, it's not expensive to load on the latest technology.
Quality of components is another issue, with some manufacturers being more resilient than others. Supply and demand. People love a gadget.
Quality of components is another issue, with some manufacturers being more resilient than others. Supply and demand. People love a gadget.
There will come a time, in the near future, maybe the next ten years, where folks will have their old, yet rust-free cars stripped out. They will then have a stack of batteries, 4 electric motors and their own 'bespoke' electronics fitted, and the car re-trimmed in their own design.
The days of buying a car, maintaining and driving it, then selling or scrapping it, are coming to an end - as a business model it just won't work when we abandon oil because of the enormous costs.
One little Iran/Israel conflagration and the whole Western reliance on oil is dead.
Anyway, I digress. I suspect that the electrics that help to manage cars engines etc will be largely redundant in my brave new world, and so I don't think it's a problem.
The days of buying a car, maintaining and driving it, then selling or scrapping it, are coming to an end - as a business model it just won't work when we abandon oil because of the enormous costs.
One little Iran/Israel conflagration and the whole Western reliance on oil is dead.
Anyway, I digress. I suspect that the electrics that help to manage cars engines etc will be largely redundant in my brave new world, and so I don't think it's a problem.
I believe the answer in some ways is yes. However, manufacturing techniques have improved. Pre manufacture design and testing has improved as a result cars have become generally more reliable. The down side to this is that the use of space has been maximised and parts are not designed to be serviced/repaired just replaced. UK labour costs are v high compared to component costs made either in a less expensive manufacturing environment or by a robot.
The consequence, when a car does go wrong, the costs to repair are often excessive. It can take significant man effort to get to the part. when you do often the whole part has to be changed and can only be bought form the dealer.
On a modern diesel it would seem that it is down to luck to an extent whether the car will do 200k or fail after 50k. It also seems from reading various forums that the cost on failure of a DMF, DPF , injector, fuel pump etc are v high.
Alot of the electrics now are pretty reliable. After all solid state circuits are a lot better than many of the older more simple circuits we used to have.
The consequence, when a car does go wrong, the costs to repair are often excessive. It can take significant man effort to get to the part. when you do often the whole part has to be changed and can only be bought form the dealer.
On a modern diesel it would seem that it is down to luck to an extent whether the car will do 200k or fail after 50k. It also seems from reading various forums that the cost on failure of a DMF, DPF , injector, fuel pump etc are v high.
Alot of the electrics now are pretty reliable. After all solid state circuits are a lot better than many of the older more simple circuits we used to have.
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