Timing chain issue

[s365]

My dad's 320i went to the dealer due to warning light and decreased acceleration. Diagnosed as a timing chain break, which explains the lack of power, but has been charged £2000. So I'm wondering whether that is a rip off or not? I know it's a ballache of a job concerning labour but how much do these things really cost?

[E30M3SE]

Did it actually break?

If so then there would not doubt be some internal damage, nee piston valve contact, however if it broke then it would have had no power as the engine would not have run.

[TX1]

Did he drive it there ? If so it would not have been broken.

[s365]

I doubt it has broken, that is just what he said and he knows nothing about cars. Anyway, does that seem a fair price for a timing chain issue?

[TX1]

Had mine go twice on me on an e36 many moons ago, once if I recall it was around the £800 mark and the last time around £500 so not much damage as turned off pretty quick when I heard the racket.
The first time if was a company car and was being serviced by superdrive whom I doubt still exist( equivalent to kwik break ) and second time it was booked to go in on monday and it went 2 days earlier with just over 24k between changes. Rotten luck that was.
With me they both went on startup and that is why I am dubious about your fathers situation.

[s365]

Have just spoken to him again. Completely lied to me about this. I asked whether the guy at the garage said "Timing chain break" and he said no. I asked him what the guy said. He said...[pauses]... timing chain damage(?)

Absolutely clueless but I am presuming it is not broken and either slipping or something. So I am guessing that he has been ripped off. Never mind, cheers for the input!

[4rephill]

s365 said:

Have just spoken to him again. Completely lied to me about this. I asked whether the guy at the garage said "Timing chain break" and he said no. I asked him what the guy said. He said...[pauses]... timing chain damage(?)

Absolutely clueless but I am presuming it is not broken and either slipping or something. So I am guessing that he has been ripped off. Never mind, cheers for the input!

Huh?

The timing chain is designed to allow the engine to operate the pistons and valves in such a way that they never hit each other.

If the timing chain has jumped a position on the sprocket - pistons meet valves, valves get bent, pistons get damaged.

That's up to 6 pistons, 24 valves, a timing chain, idler pulley and gear sprockets that could be damaged. Added to this are the gaskets, oil, coolant and various other parts that are required + the labour to repair the damage.

Frankly, if the bill to repair this is only £2K then I'd say it is far from him being ripped off, in fact, I'd say he's been a lucky boy not to end up with a bigger bill!

[s365]

4rephill said:

Huh?

The timing chain is designed to allow the engine to operate the pistons and valves in such a way that they never hit each other.

If the timing chain has jumped a position on the sprocket - pistons meet valves, valves get bent, pistons get damaged.

That's up to 6 pistons, 24 valves, a timing chain, idler pulley and gear sprockets that could be damaged. Added to this are the gaskets, oil, coolant and various other parts that are required + the labour to repair the damage.

Frankly, if the bill to repair this is only £2K then I'd say it is far from him being ripped off, in fact, I'd say he's been a lucky boy not to end up with a bigger bill!

He never mentioned any noise, surely there would be noise with all that going on? It's just that BMW have a bad rep for grabbing money, especially out of warranty. My dad said they're fitting new brake pads too. Now I could have found him some if I had known, but he has paid 240 per front and 160 per rear. I don't think he trusts my judgement because I am 21 and he is 50 and therefore is obviously much more adept in this field.

[TheEnd]

Timing chain jumps (and then breaks) are turning up more often these days on the N series engines, often started from a chain guide between the two cams breaking up, leading to slap, jump and snap.

[Mustard]

TheEnd said:

Timing chain jumps (and then breaks) are turning up more often these days on the N series engines, often started from a chain guide between the two cams breaking up, leading to slap, jump and snap.

Indeed

Its the plastic timing chain guide that breaks, causing the chain to go slack, valvetromic engine needs special equipment to set up and on some N engines the head has to come off to replace guide so circa £750 to £2000 (expensive hourly rate main dealer) depending on who's doing it

Note, valves are not normally damage as failure normally occurs at low speeds

Edited by Mustard on Saturday 10th March 08:09

[4rephill]

s365 said:

He never mentioned any noise, surely there would be noise with all that going on? It's just that BMW have a bad rep for grabbing money, especially out of warranty. My dad said they're fitting new brake pads too. Now I could have found him some if I had known, but he has paid 240 per front and 160 per rear. I don't think he trusts my judgement because I am 21 and he is 50 and therefore is obviously much more adept in this field.

Sorry but that statement is not correct!

Try this:

"BMW have a reputation as being expensive to repair without a warranty!"
(I think you'll find that to be far more accurate!)


What do you expect BMW to do?, give everything away free if something goes wrong out of warranty?

These cars come with a warranty from new and then the owner has the option to continue the warranty (for a price), or take their chances without a warranty.
What's really funny is that if the owners decide they'll risk not continuing the warranty and something unfortunate happens, they moan and bh about BMW's stance on out of warranty repairs as if BMW had kept the whole warranty situation a secret!

In a lot of cases BMW offer goodwill payments on repairs out of warranty when they're under no legal obligation whatsoever. It all depends on the type of failure, how and where you've serviced the car, how good a customer you've been for them, how you approach them about the situation.

Tell you what, buy a Mercedes and see how they treat their customers! Go to Audi and see if they give away free repairs out of warranty!



Here's a simple lesson for you:

BMW's are not cheap cars! They are not cheap to buy and they are not cheap to run! (especially if you use BMW Main Dealers), Never have been, never will be!
Anyone thinking otherwise is either a multi-Millionaire or an idiot!

If you want cheap motoring then buy something Korean!

Yes, you can save money by using independent specialists/do your own servicing work etc., etc., but for crying out loud, don't cry and bh that BMW's are expensive to run cars, like it's a fact nobody ever knew!

If you try to run a BMW on the cheap, chances are, sooner or later it will bite you in the arse big time!


As I previously posted, If your old Mans's only had to pay £2K for his repair then he's been a very lucky boy!
(Don't believe Me? - try a search for the cost of a new BMW engine!)

[TheEnd]

Mustard said:

Note, valves are not normally damage as failure normally occurs at low speeds

That's better than nothing I guess, especially when they happen out of warranty.
I was reading about a 120D owner over on BabyBMW that is having a new crank fitted as the chain managed to damage that too.

[s365]

Ooh I appear to have touched a nerve!

The warranty went void only a few months ago. The car has only done 40 odd thousand and the timing chain has a LIFETIME GUARANTEE ALLEGEDLY.

Sorry for not being the know-all of BMWs sir.

[TX1]

Thought timing chains snapping was a thing of the past however if the plastic timing chain guide goes it is back to square one.
Out of curiosity if the guide goes and does damage would that be covered by the comprehensive extended warranty or would that come under normal wear and tear ?

[E30M3SE]

s365 said:

Ooh I appear to have touched a nerve!

The warranty went void only a few months ago. The car has only done 40 odd thousand and the timing chain has a LIFETIME GUARANTEE ALLEGEDLY.

Sorry for not being the know-all of BMWs sir.

Did your father push them for any godwill if this is the case?

[Mustard]

TX1 said:

Thought timing chains snapping was a thing of the past however if the plastic timing chain guide goes it is back to square one.
Out of curiosity if the guide goes and does damage would that be covered by the comprehensive extended warranty or would that come under normal wear and tear ?

Yep, quite what they fitted a plastic tensioner is beyond me (engines where designed in uk with rover imput I believe) happened to inlaws E46 316i , I'd stick to an M54 six pot if I' d have known

There may be some wriggle room on the words consequential damage, but as it tends not to cause any damage you should be ok, biggest cost is labour stripping the engine to remove the broken tensioner

[s365]

E30M3SE said:

Did your father push them for any godwill if this is the case?

Well 4rephill seems to think that is already the case!

[4rephill]

s365 said:

Ooh I appear to have touched a nerve!

You've merely demonstrated the folly of youth: "I'm 21 and I know what's really going on!" (enjoy it while it lasts, eventually the reality of the world will take over!).

When I was 21 I thought I knew everything (and right now you're thinking: "Yeah!, right!, and you still do!"), but now when I look back at what I was like back then, I realise how wrong I was about so many things (now you're thinking: "And nothing's changed by the looks of it!")
Trust me on this, one day in the future, you will look back and realise the exact same thing! ("No I won't!")

You're bhin about the cost of repairing a BMW engine because: "It's just a car and it doesn't cost that much to fix a car!, BMW are just a bunch of thieving bds"

Here's the reality check (again!), Life in BMW motoring lesson No.1: You're Father has bought an expensive car. Expensive cars are expensive to run. When expensive cars go wrong (and they do go wrong!), they are expensive to repair.


I'm assuming your Father has had a BMW Main Dealer do the repair. If this is the case, be aware that BMW Main Dealers charge @ £90~£130 per hour labour rate, depending on where you live (They charge @£70~£100 just to check your car's fault codes! [called: "Running diagnostics"]).
(Someone's got to pay for the fancy Dealerships running costs and the profit on car's is not enough!)

Stripping an engine to check for damage is not a 20 minute job or even a couple of hours worth of work. To do the job properly takes time (there's a shed load of stuff to remove before you even get to the engine!).

With BMW Main Dealers, they have a set amount of time to do the job (set by BMW GmbH themselves in Germany, not by the Dealer). If BMW GmbH say it's a 6 hour job to strip the engine, the BMW Dealership can only charge 6 hours labour (£540~£780 straight away [and you can add that amount again for putting the engine back together so there's £1080~£1560 in labour alone!).

If the Dealer can do the job in 5 hours, then the 6th hour is profit for them (and before you scream: "There you go!, thieving Bds!", the time limit set by BMW GmbH is pretty tight and it is not easy to achieve the time limits, especially on older cars [BMW GmbH perform the task on a brand spanking new car to set the limits, not on an old car that has been used on the road and may have parts that are seized]).

If the Dealer takes 7 hours to do the job, they cannot charge for the extra hour it took (BMW GmbH does not allow this).

Life in BMW motoring lesson No.2): Mechanical parts from BMW are not cheap! (strangely though, a lot of small parts such as trim pieces, clips, screws etc., are cheaper from the Main Dealer than many of the discount places so it's always worth getting a price first).
(Having said that, looking on Realoem, the individual prices for the timing chain et al seem to be quite reasonable!)

Care to guess how much a 1 litre top up of oil costs from BMW?: £19.90 (so to refill your Fathers car with oil = @£90)

With the amount of work involved in sorting this engine out, £2K is not a bad price from a BMW Main Dealer!
(If the engine was beyond repair, the cost of a short block alone is @ £5800!)

s365 said:

The warranty went void only a few months ago. The car has only done 40 odd thousand and the timing chain has a LIFETIME GUARANTEE ALLEGEDLY.

A classic example of the folly of your youth!
The timing chain DOES NOT have a lifetime guarantee!

In ideal circumstances, the timing chain should last the lifetime of the car (note: should!). Unfortunately, as others have posted, timing chains jumping does seem to happen to some of these engines.

It seems that your Father has taken the gamble on not renewing the warranty and now it has bitten him in the arse!
There in itself is one of life's lessons to be learned, it doesn't always pay to gamble!

s365 said:

E30M3SE said:

Did your father push them for any godwill if this is the case?

Well 4rephill seems to think that is already the case!

I would hope he did inquire about a goodwill payment but BMW are not obliged to provide one.

s365 said:

Sorry for not being the know-all of BMWs sir.

And yet you feel you know enough to declare:

s365 said:

It's just that BMW have a bad rep for grabbing money, especially out of warranty.

Ah!, the folly of youth!

[s365]

Jesus TF Christ man.

I have not once claimed to own a BMW nor know anything about them. What I have said about them is merely from what I have been told from (I'm assuming equally unknowledgeable according to you) people. Neither have I claimed to KNOW EVERYTHING. Come right down from your high horse you angry, irritable, bloodthirsty tit.

I have not mentioned that BMW's should be cheap cars. I merely inquired as to the costs that this issue may bring up. And from TX1's post earlier on, £2000 is a long way from £800 and £500, so it would not be unreasonable to think (remember: after hearing from people that BMW are money grabbers) that the costs had been exaggerated.

Oh well I suppose I owe you an apology for not knowing the timing chain SHOULD last the lifetime of the car and that it's not a guarantee (again something else I've heard- do you not know the meaning of the word allegedly?), it's just that I don't have my penis inserted into the exhaust of a BMW all the time and I'm not constantly rimming its pistons either.

Take a look at yourself and question whether you think I actually think I know everything. I didn't come here for a life lesson from a petulant stain on the sheet. All I wanted to know was the potential costs of a timing chain issue, but thanks for revealing your time of the month.

[Florider24]

Guys,
My E46 came to a halt last Friday, took it to the mechanic and today I’m advised that the timing gain came off based on symptoms. Smooth ride until that very moment with an oil leak that need seeing to only. I received a quote of £1300 to fix and could be more if pistons and valves damaged (mostly labour). Has anyone experienced that before cuz I’ve never heard of a timing chain coming off till I started reading below. Is this a legit symptom?

s365 said:

He never mentioned any noise, surely there would be noise with all that going on? It's just that BMW have a bad rep for grabbing money, especially out of warranty. My dad said they're fitting new brake pads too. Now I could have found him some if I had known, but he has paid 240 per front and 160 per rear. I don't think he trusts my judgement because I am 21 and he is 50 and therefore is obviously much more adept in this field.