Dual Clutch vs Manual - my reality
Discussion
Also posted this in the BMW section as it concerns my 135i DCT, but thought this topic is worthy of a general discussion....
Like MP3 vs Vinyl, the inexolerable rise of the Dual Clutch Gearbox has caused its fair share of debate among car enthusiasts. There is no doubt that a DCT/DSG box (or whatever you want to call it) makes acceleration and rapid gear swapping more efficient than ever before but does it rob the car of some soul? Does it rob the driver of some interactivity? Does it malign the harmony of man and machine?
Well, Im afraid folks, I think it does. After the praise I heaped on my 135i DCT in my first report, the reality of life with a DCT box has landed. Honeymoon period over.
The trouble is, you won't appreciate this after your test drive. You'll step out of the car having experienced seamless acceleration, characterful exhaust barps on the upshifts, and perfect rev-matched downshifts. The speed of response of the gear changes will have blown you away and having then pootled around town in auto mode on your run back to the dealership, you will be convinced that the dual clutch gearbox offers the best of both manual and automatic gearboxes.
However, if you really "live" with a dual clutch gearbox over a long period, and class the act of driving as an enjoyable past time (one that you strive to get better and better at), over time, the dual clutch box becomes frustrating. It makes you lazy as a driver.
The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking you'd be having more fun in a manual. Most drivers would be faster in the dual clutch car - of that, there is little doubt, but are you necessarily having more fun?
The challenge of shifting smoothly and quickly with a stick and clutch is far more satisfying than the remote feeling of pulling on a plastic paddle. It's the little things that you miss, - like blipping the throttle for the sake of it in a tunnel, or feeling the meshing of cogs beneath your palm, and these are all taken away from you if you have a dual clutch transmission. No longer can you derive pleasure from perfecting that perfect heal-and-toe downchange. Instead, you execute it perfectly every time (by computer), but feel you have achieved little in your quest to become a better driver.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
Having said all that, for 90% of most people's everyday driving, a dual clutch/auto makes most sense as it takes the stress and effort out of continually pushing that left pedal whilst negotiating heavy congestion, aggressive van drivers, suicidal motorcycle couriers, average speed camera zones, contraflows, speed humps, 20mph zones and unscheduled road works. In your DCT/Auto you can just waft along and let the gearbox do its thing.
The end result then, is that a dual clutch gearbox in a performance car ends up feeling a little too executive - too remote, and lacking in interactivity. And interactivity is what you bought a performance car for in the first place isn't it? Or was it purely about the numbers your car can achieve? - is that your cars raison dtre?
No doubt about it, a DCT box in a 135i makes it a very fast car. You can leave most other machinery for dead in the traffic light grand prix. But for me, it does end up feeling like a one trick pony after a while.
I'm planning on taking my car on track soon to see if it can serve up some real fun in this environment, but I'm not expecting any revelations based upon my experiences with it so far on road. We will see, but I have to say that at the moment, for me, my experiences with DCT/DSG have reconfirmed my love for the proper, manual gearbox.
Like MP3 vs Vinyl, the inexolerable rise of the Dual Clutch Gearbox has caused its fair share of debate among car enthusiasts. There is no doubt that a DCT/DSG box (or whatever you want to call it) makes acceleration and rapid gear swapping more efficient than ever before but does it rob the car of some soul? Does it rob the driver of some interactivity? Does it malign the harmony of man and machine?
Well, Im afraid folks, I think it does. After the praise I heaped on my 135i DCT in my first report, the reality of life with a DCT box has landed. Honeymoon period over.
The trouble is, you won't appreciate this after your test drive. You'll step out of the car having experienced seamless acceleration, characterful exhaust barps on the upshifts, and perfect rev-matched downshifts. The speed of response of the gear changes will have blown you away and having then pootled around town in auto mode on your run back to the dealership, you will be convinced that the dual clutch gearbox offers the best of both manual and automatic gearboxes.
However, if you really "live" with a dual clutch gearbox over a long period, and class the act of driving as an enjoyable past time (one that you strive to get better and better at), over time, the dual clutch box becomes frustrating. It makes you lazy as a driver.
The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking you'd be having more fun in a manual. Most drivers would be faster in the dual clutch car - of that, there is little doubt, but are you necessarily having more fun?
The challenge of shifting smoothly and quickly with a stick and clutch is far more satisfying than the remote feeling of pulling on a plastic paddle. It's the little things that you miss, - like blipping the throttle for the sake of it in a tunnel, or feeling the meshing of cogs beneath your palm, and these are all taken away from you if you have a dual clutch transmission. No longer can you derive pleasure from perfecting that perfect heal-and-toe downchange. Instead, you execute it perfectly every time (by computer), but feel you have achieved little in your quest to become a better driver.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
Having said all that, for 90% of most people's everyday driving, a dual clutch/auto makes most sense as it takes the stress and effort out of continually pushing that left pedal whilst negotiating heavy congestion, aggressive van drivers, suicidal motorcycle couriers, average speed camera zones, contraflows, speed humps, 20mph zones and unscheduled road works. In your DCT/Auto you can just waft along and let the gearbox do its thing.
The end result then, is that a dual clutch gearbox in a performance car ends up feeling a little too executive - too remote, and lacking in interactivity. And interactivity is what you bought a performance car for in the first place isn't it? Or was it purely about the numbers your car can achieve? - is that your cars raison dtre?
No doubt about it, a DCT box in a 135i makes it a very fast car. You can leave most other machinery for dead in the traffic light grand prix. But for me, it does end up feeling like a one trick pony after a while.
I'm planning on taking my car on track soon to see if it can serve up some real fun in this environment, but I'm not expecting any revelations based upon my experiences with it so far on road. We will see, but I have to say that at the moment, for me, my experiences with DCT/DSG have reconfirmed my love for the proper, manual gearbox.
Edited by daveknott5 on Monday 19th March 12:38
Edited by daveknott5 on Monday 19th March 16:15
I also think there's a long term reliability issue with these - there's a lot to go wrong.
I know you need progress and people want choice, but I think the DSG 'boxes are still in their relative infancy in terms of development.
I reckon we'll never get rid of the trad manual 'box - I think all gearboxes will go when the electric car becomes mainstream...
I know you need progress and people want choice, but I think the DSG 'boxes are still in their relative infancy in terms of development.
I reckon we'll never get rid of the trad manual 'box - I think all gearboxes will go when the electric car becomes mainstream...
A friend has one of the earlier DSG Audi A3's. Great car, economical and swift, even as a diesel. BUT, several issues though (hopefully solved with the more recent ones):
1) On track - fought with the gearbox and couldnt seem to get the right gear at the right time.
2) Winter mode - got stuck in snow and mud FAR too easily, no winter mode to help
Great idea, fantastic engineering and so far no reliability issues. BUT, suspect that an enthusiastic driver will struggle.
1) On track - fought with the gearbox and couldnt seem to get the right gear at the right time.
2) Winter mode - got stuck in snow and mud FAR too easily, no winter mode to help
Great idea, fantastic engineering and so far no reliability issues. BUT, suspect that an enthusiastic driver will struggle.
I think it also depends on what dual clutch box you are talking about. I have a PDK box in my Porsche. For a week a couple of months ago I had a 2011 BMW M3 with the MDCT box. They are like chalk and cheese and the BMW box is a pile of s
te compared to the Porsche unit. The only gripe that I have with the Porsche unit is that you can't manually put it in second when driving at very low speeds but beyond that it is brilliant in both manual and auto modes. The BMW box was jerky and didn't change when you expected it and was just awful even though I tried all of the speed shift modes.
te compared to the Porsche unit. The only gripe that I have with the Porsche unit is that you can't manually put it in second when driving at very low speeds but beyond that it is brilliant in both manual and auto modes. The BMW box was jerky and didn't change when you expected it and was just awful even though I tried all of the speed shift modes. daveknott5 said:
Also posted this in the BMW section as it concerns my 135i DCT, but thought this topic is worthy of a general discussion....
Like MP3 vs Vinyl, the inexolerable rise of the Dual Clutch Gearbox has caused its fair share of debate among car enthusiasts. There is no doubt that a DCT/DSG box (or whatever you want to call it) makes acceleration and rapid gear swapping more efficient than ever before but does it rob the car of some soul? Does it rob the driver of some interactivity? Does it malign the harmony of man and machine?
Well, Im afraid folks, I think it does. After the praise I heaped on my 135i DCT in my first report, the reality of life with a DCT box has landed. Honeymoon period over.
The trouble is, you won't appreciate this after your test drive. You'll step out of the car having experienced seamless acceleration, characterful exhaust barps on the upshifts, and perfect rev-matched downshifts. The speed of response of the gear changes will have blown you away and having then pootled around town in auto mode on your run back to the dealership, you will be convinced that the dual clutch gearbox offers the best of both manual and automatic gearboxes.
However, if you really "live" with a dual clutch gearbox over a long period, and class the act of driving as an enjoyable past time (one that you strive to get better and better at), over time, the dual clutch box becomes frustrating. It makes you lazy as a driver.
The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking youd be having more fun in a manual. Most drivers would be faster in the dual clutch car - of that, there is little doubt, but are you necessarily having more fun?
The challenge of shifting smoothly and quickly with a stick and clutch is far more satisfying than the remote feeling of pulling on a plastic paddle. It's the little things that you miss, - like blipping the throttle for the sake of it in a tunnel, or feeling the meshing of cogs beneath your palm, and these are all taken away from you if you have a dual clutch transmission. No longer can you derive pleasure from perfecting that perfect heal-and-toe downchange. Instead, you execute it perfectly every time (by computer), but feel you have achieved little in your quest to become a better driver.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
Having said all that, for 90% of most people's everyday driving, a dual clutch/auto makes most sense as it takes the stress and effort out of continually pushing that left pedal whilst negotiating heavy congestion, aggressive van drivers, suicidal motorcycle couriers, average speed camera zones, contraflows, speed humps, 20mph zones and unscheduled road works. In your DCT/Auto you can just waft along and let the gearbox do its thing.
The end result then, is that a dual clutch gearbox in a performance car ends up feeling a little too executive - too remote, and lacking in interactivity. And interactivity is what you bought a performance car for in the first place isn't it? Or was it purely about the numbers your car can achieve? - is that your cars raison dtre?
No doubt about it, a DCT box in a 135i makes it a very fast car. You can leave most other machinery for dead in the traffic light grand prix. But for me, it does end up feeling like a one trick pony after a while.
I'm planning on taking my car on track soon to see if it can serve up some real fun in this environment, but I'm not expecting any revelations based upon my experiences with it so far on road. We will see, but I have to say that at the moment, for me, my experiences with DCT/DSG have reconfirmed my love for the proper, manual gearbox.
Excellent review.Like MP3 vs Vinyl, the inexolerable rise of the Dual Clutch Gearbox has caused its fair share of debate among car enthusiasts. There is no doubt that a DCT/DSG box (or whatever you want to call it) makes acceleration and rapid gear swapping more efficient than ever before but does it rob the car of some soul? Does it rob the driver of some interactivity? Does it malign the harmony of man and machine?
Well, Im afraid folks, I think it does. After the praise I heaped on my 135i DCT in my first report, the reality of life with a DCT box has landed. Honeymoon period over.
The trouble is, you won't appreciate this after your test drive. You'll step out of the car having experienced seamless acceleration, characterful exhaust barps on the upshifts, and perfect rev-matched downshifts. The speed of response of the gear changes will have blown you away and having then pootled around town in auto mode on your run back to the dealership, you will be convinced that the dual clutch gearbox offers the best of both manual and automatic gearboxes.
However, if you really "live" with a dual clutch gearbox over a long period, and class the act of driving as an enjoyable past time (one that you strive to get better and better at), over time, the dual clutch box becomes frustrating. It makes you lazy as a driver.
The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking youd be having more fun in a manual. Most drivers would be faster in the dual clutch car - of that, there is little doubt, but are you necessarily having more fun?
The challenge of shifting smoothly and quickly with a stick and clutch is far more satisfying than the remote feeling of pulling on a plastic paddle. It's the little things that you miss, - like blipping the throttle for the sake of it in a tunnel, or feeling the meshing of cogs beneath your palm, and these are all taken away from you if you have a dual clutch transmission. No longer can you derive pleasure from perfecting that perfect heal-and-toe downchange. Instead, you execute it perfectly every time (by computer), but feel you have achieved little in your quest to become a better driver.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
Having said all that, for 90% of most people's everyday driving, a dual clutch/auto makes most sense as it takes the stress and effort out of continually pushing that left pedal whilst negotiating heavy congestion, aggressive van drivers, suicidal motorcycle couriers, average speed camera zones, contraflows, speed humps, 20mph zones and unscheduled road works. In your DCT/Auto you can just waft along and let the gearbox do its thing.
The end result then, is that a dual clutch gearbox in a performance car ends up feeling a little too executive - too remote, and lacking in interactivity. And interactivity is what you bought a performance car for in the first place isn't it? Or was it purely about the numbers your car can achieve? - is that your cars raison dtre?
No doubt about it, a DCT box in a 135i makes it a very fast car. You can leave most other machinery for dead in the traffic light grand prix. But for me, it does end up feeling like a one trick pony after a while.
I'm planning on taking my car on track soon to see if it can serve up some real fun in this environment, but I'm not expecting any revelations based upon my experiences with it so far on road. We will see, but I have to say that at the moment, for me, my experiences with DCT/DSG have reconfirmed my love for the proper, manual gearbox.
Edited by daveknott5 on Monday 19th March 12:38
A breath of fresh air to see someone who has spent money or a car and not arguably justifying its purchase constantly.
Not to cause a usual PH debate but i feel the same way about my diesel. Not the gearbox the driving experience as a whole.
Edited by k15tox on Monday 19th March 16:27
dave stew said:
I also think there's a long term reliability issue with these - there's a lot to go wrong.
I know you need progress and people want choice, but I think the DSG 'boxes are still in their relative infancy in terms of development.
I reckon we'll never get rid of the trad manual 'box - I think all gearboxes will go when the electric car becomes mainstream...
They have been around for nearly 30 years. Porsche's original PDK box was designed for the 956 race car. I know you need progress and people want choice, but I think the DSG 'boxes are still in their relative infancy in terms of development.
I reckon we'll never get rid of the trad manual 'box - I think all gearboxes will go when the electric car becomes mainstream...
daveknott5 said:
over time, the dual clutch box becomes frustrating. It makes you lazy as a driver.
The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking you'd be having more fun in a manual.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
Couldn't agree more. We have a Golf GTI Ed30 with DSG. The gearbox is brilliant. But because you don't have to change gear, you leave it in manual. When you want to push on, it's not as satisfying or fun as changing gear with clutch and gearstick.The reality is that the path of least resistance for most is to stick it in D and let the box do its thing in day-today driving. Can you really be bothered to paddle shift up and down the box on motorways, or in town? No, you can't. You dont get any extra enjoyment as a driver from doing it. The only time you really enjoy the paddles and full manual mode, is when you're on a good, sparsely populated, twisty A or B road and then, you find yourself thinking you'd be having more fun in a manual.
This is the frustrating reality of life with a dual clutcher.
I had a Boxster S with PDK as a loan car a while back- I thought the PDK was better than the DSG, and made the car incredibly quick. Which puts me in 2 minds about my next 911- could well have PDK. But will I miss changing gears? Probably.
Cactussed said:
I think that's it in a nutshell.
A double clutch will never be as fun or as satisfying. Ever. Faster - hugely. More efficient - assuredly. Less effort - obviously.
But for just enjoyment of driving - nope.
depends what it is about driving you enjoyA double clutch will never be as fun or as satisfying. Ever. Faster - hugely. More efficient - assuredly. Less effort - obviously.
But for just enjoyment of driving - nope.
with my PDK box in sports plus mode there is no way that I could ever drive like that in a manual
i have had duel clutch cars for 5 and half years, i use D in heavy traffic, M in all other situations
i switch back and forth all the time without even thinking about it
for real world everyday use duel clutch is superb, for a weekend toy / track car then maunal will give you more involvement
i wouldn't buy a manual car for everyday use
i switch back and forth all the time without even thinking about it
for real world everyday use duel clutch is superb, for a weekend toy / track car then maunal will give you more involvement
i wouldn't buy a manual car for everyday use
Having had both (currently on a DSG) I have to say that for everyday driving (which is what we do, er, everyday) I much prefer the DSG. I always swore by a manual and how much more involved the drive was even when colleagues were raving about their DSG's.
Now I'm quite happy to leave it in D in traffic or on the motorway or use sports mode or play with the paddles when I'm driving more spiritedly. I even tend to use manual and the paddles in town sometimes. Personally I dont see it as less engaging, just slightly less effort.
Now if you really want to talk about unengaging to drive gearboxes lets talk CVT's....
Now I'm quite happy to leave it in D in traffic or on the motorway or use sports mode or play with the paddles when I'm driving more spiritedly. I even tend to use manual and the paddles in town sometimes. Personally I dont see it as less engaging, just slightly less effort.
Now if you really want to talk about unengaging to drive gearboxes lets talk CVT's....
10 Pence Short said:
Do you find the duel clutch fights itself for the right gear? I've heard it's quite an adversarial setup.
the R32s worked pretty faultlessly, it was a little slow (old tech, 6 speed dry clutch) and wouldn't hold gear on the red line, the RS3s is just bloody brilliant (wet clutch 7 speed), slams up and down the box as fast as you can flick it
on me. Fantastic jesting, or jousting.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff