Death of the petrol engine?
Discussion
Well, not the death, but maybe the beginning of the end...
I found some information on the latest Budget last night and it made me wonder how long the petrol engine has left in mid sized cars... seems that the company car tax rates are going to be hiked from 2014 onwards, and the 3% surcharge on diesels is going to be abolished.
If the Goverment continue to use only CO2 emissions as the basis for company car tax, this will mean the end for petrol engines in company cars as their emissions are so much higher than equivalent diesels.
I'd expect a very high percentage of 'mid sized' brand new cars are company purchases, meaning there would almost no demand for petrols and ultimately manufacturers would have to decide if it's worth the effort of offering a petrol in some ranges.
I found some information on the latest Budget last night and it made me wonder how long the petrol engine has left in mid sized cars... seems that the company car tax rates are going to be hiked from 2014 onwards, and the 3% surcharge on diesels is going to be abolished.
If the Goverment continue to use only CO2 emissions as the basis for company car tax, this will mean the end for petrol engines in company cars as their emissions are so much higher than equivalent diesels.
I'd expect a very high percentage of 'mid sized' brand new cars are company purchases, meaning there would almost no demand for petrols and ultimately manufacturers would have to decide if it's worth the effort of offering a petrol in some ranges.
doogz said:
Does the change to company car rules really make any difference? When was the last time anyone bought a petrol company car anyway?
I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
This is exactly what i'm thinking. The petrol engines death will be coming around when hydrogen vehicles get cheap/mass produced. Okay maybe not death, but certainly less produced.I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
doogz said:
Does the change to company car rules really make any difference? When was the last time anyone bought a petrol company car anyway?
I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
Yep, that 1 litre Ford engine is going to reap some changes.I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
BMW, VAG, Ford and others are planning a future around smaller, more efficient petrol engines. CO2 is a poor basis for taxation if you care about things like city air quality - diesels do great at CO2 but are much poorer on most other metrics (NOx, SO2, etc) than petrol. Any kind of supplemental tax based on other nasty outputs would cool the demand for diesel pretty quickly and swing things back in favour of petrol.
Not sure about "cheaper to maintain" though. Traditionally petrol engines were simpler and thus less to go wrong, and cheap bits when they did go wrong. A modern turbocharged eco petrol engine is just as much a hive of sensors, expensive high-pressure injectors and variable turbos to go expensively wrong as any current turbodiesel.
Not sure about "cheaper to maintain" though. Traditionally petrol engines were simpler and thus less to go wrong, and cheap bits when they did go wrong. A modern turbocharged eco petrol engine is just as much a hive of sensors, expensive high-pressure injectors and variable turbos to go expensively wrong as any current turbodiesel.
doogz said:
When was the last time anyone bought a petrol company car anyway?
I've got a Cooper S company car on order 
25,000 miles/annum.The Mothership company introduced a new company car scheme a few years ago which uses the 'bare' lease rate (i.e. without fuel) as the base for its calculations vs. ones allowance. As long as diesel versions are more expensive to buy (and in The Netherlands, tax) as petrols, there's not much of an incentive to go for a diesel version. Except for the odd one that slips under the 95 g/km CO2 barrier, which means no VED or registration tax is due.
doogz said:
My chain tensioner went, and lunched the engine. Had it rebuilt, then a chain guide went, same result. Had it rebuilt again, and 2 weeks later the VANOS unit gave up.
Sold it very shortly afterwards, although, i was trying to sell it anyway.
I would question the diagnostic skills of the rebuilder to begin with. One engine failure is unlucky, two subsequent failures merely indicates that someone wasn't paying attention...Sold it very shortly afterwards, although, i was trying to sell it anyway.
julian64 said:
'diesels' do not have less emissions than petrol. Nothing like it. In fact the complete opposite 
Ah but they had less CO2 on a particular not very realistic test and that saves the polar bears! I bet driven normally they are no better than a petrol. Diesels have alsorts of extra exhaust gubbins to kill the extra emissions, but urea injection needs refilling, DPF's fill up and cause problems if you can't regenerate them. Lots of band aids to get the engine where it is.Sadly, some of this may be coming to petrols in the coming years. In particular the particulate traps. Yes petrols
Produce PM too! But not in weigh-able amounts in the given time, but the EU want to move to counting particles rather than weighing (good luck! I find particle counters to be almost random number generators). One big car maker is researching this as we speak. I know the PhD's working on it.
Petrol ain't dead though. I think it's making a come back! If there was a focus 1.0t on a company car scheme I'll take one thanks!
doogz said:
Does the change to company car rules really make any difference? When was the last time anyone bought a petrol company car anyway?
I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
Not really possible to comment on the new 3cyl 1ltr turbo from Fiord as its only just been released. We all know the problems with modern desesl including turbos, EGR, DPF, turbos, intercoolers and various other bits. You've still got Turbos and intercoolers to deal with on the three low capacity turbos engines. I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
I do believe that we will see the end of 2ltr and 1.8ltr engines in things like the Mondeo and the 3 series. I'd expect to see them FA 1.6s ot lower capacity.
sjg said:
Not sure about "cheaper to maintain" though. Traditionally petrol engines were simpler and thus less to go wrong, and cheap bits when they did go wrong. A modern turbocharged eco petrol engine is just as much a hive of sensors, expensive high-pressure injectors and variable turbos to go expensively wrong as any current turbodiesel.
That's the problem IMHO. The more "we" as a consumer ask of the IC engine, whether petrol or diesel, the more problematic they will become to maintain.Hydrogen is "an option" IMHO, as Ford IIRC made a rolling example that worked well. BUT peoples safety concerns over hydrogen, and marketing it seemed to be a sticking point from what I remember reading.
bakerstreet said:
I do believe that we will see the end of 2ltr and 1.8ltr engines in things like the Mondeo and the 3 series. I'd expect to see them FA 1.6s ot lower capacity.
Bingo.A 1.0l petrol (as Ford has recently released) might help smaller, private cars (focus sized or below) that are used primarily for short trips, but I don't see how smaller capacity petrol engines help with the 3er/A4/Mondeo class of car doing big motorway mileages... the performance and economy deficit vs a 2.0l diesel would be huge.
Taking the new 3 series as an example... performance wise, the 320i is a little faster to 60 than a 320d ED, but is probably a bit slower in give and take driving. But everywhere else it's at a significant disdvantage - consumption is c.20mpg worse (on combined) and emissions are 38g/km worse (meaning a MUCH higher tax braket once the 3% diesel surcharge goes). A small capacity petrol won't work in this type of car unless there's some breakthough technollogy that somehow manages to double the torque at a lower RPM... and the gap between petrol and diesel becomes wider once you go up a class to 5 series sized cars.
So what we'll probably end up with is small (tiny) capacity petrols in small cars and larger capacity petrols in sports cars. But for the majority of mid and large size cars (that are primarily company bought) petrols won't make sense.
And if companies aren't buying/leasing them new, there won't be any on the used market 3-4 years later.
doogz said:
The tensioner certainly failed the first time around. They replaced it, along with the chain. Then a guide snapped. Hardly the fault of the mechanic that a material faulure occurred.
Sorry to go off-topic and sorry to bang on, but in my experience it's exceedingly rare for hitherto intact parts to just 'snap'. I'd wager to guess that a diligent builder had spotted some sort of adverse wear pattern, hairline crack etc. to indicate there was a chance of that part failing and thus it shouldn't have been in the engine as it was returned to the customer. Of course, there is a chance of two essential parts of a chain drive system failing one shortly after the other because of a material or manufacturing defect and no external signs of it beforehand, but we're probably talking one in a million or so...
Chris Stott said:
bakerstreet said:
I do believe that we will see the end of 2ltr and 1.8ltr engines in things like the Mondeo and the 3 series. I'd expect to see them FA 1.6s ot lower capacity.
Bingo.A 1.0l petrol (as Ford has recently released) might help smaller, private cars (focus sized or below) that are used primarily for short trips, but I don't see how smaller capacity petrol engines help with the 3er/A4/Mondeo class of car doing big motorway mileages... the performance and economy deficit vs a 2.0l diesel would be huge.
Taking the new 3 series as an example... performance wise, the 320i is a little faster to 60 than a 320d ED, but is probably a bit slower in give and take driving. But everywhere else it's at a significant disdvantage - consumption is c.20mpg worse (on combined) and emissions are 38g/km worse (meaning a MUCH higher tax braket once the 3% diesel surcharge goes). A small capacity petrol won't work in this type of car unless there's some breakthough technollogy that somehow manages to double the torque at a lower RPM... and the gap between petrol and diesel becomes wider once you go up a class to 5 series sized cars.
So what we'll probably end up with is small (tiny) capacity petrols in small cars and larger capacity petrols in sports cars. But for the majority of mid and large size cars (that are primarily company bought) petrols won't make sense.
And if companies aren't buying/leasing them new, there won't be any on the used market 3-4 years later.
doogz said:
Does the change to company car rules really make any difference? When was the last time anyone bought a petrol company car anyway?
I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
I was only thinking the other day, what with the mahoosive price difference in petrol and diesel, the fact that you have to do a good 15-18k to make a derve pay over a 3 year period - who in their right mind would buy a diesel!?I think petrol's staging a come back, in smaller capacity, forced induction form, with fewer cylinders than we're generally used to. Cheap to run, cheap to maintain, nicer to drive (opinion, before the usuals get all uppity about diesel bashing) and just as, if not more, reliable
Chris Stott said:
Well, not the death, but maybe the beginning of the end...
I found some information on the latest Budget last night and it made me wonder how long the petrol engine has left in mid sized cars... seems that the company car tax rates are going to be hiked from 2014 onwards, and the 3% surcharge on diesels is going to be abolished.
If the Goverment continue to use only CO2 emissions as the basis for company car tax, this will mean the end for petrol engines in company cars as their emissions are so much higher than equivalent diesels.
I'd expect a very high percentage of 'mid sized' brand new cars are company purchases, meaning there would almost no demand for petrols and ultimately manufacturers would have to decide if it's worth the effort of offering a petrol in some ranges.
The UK company car market is pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things, and given that the UK is the only country in the world (I think) that uses CO2 as a tax measure, and the fact that the rest of the world (including the USA and China) don't care much for diesels, I doubt the petrol engine is going anywhere just yet.I found some information on the latest Budget last night and it made me wonder how long the petrol engine has left in mid sized cars... seems that the company car tax rates are going to be hiked from 2014 onwards, and the 3% surcharge on diesels is going to be abolished.
If the Goverment continue to use only CO2 emissions as the basis for company car tax, this will mean the end for petrol engines in company cars as their emissions are so much higher than equivalent diesels.
I'd expect a very high percentage of 'mid sized' brand new cars are company purchases, meaning there would almost no demand for petrols and ultimately manufacturers would have to decide if it's worth the effort of offering a petrol in some ranges.
If you want a "clean" exhaust emissions, forget CO2 for a minute and think of the other much that diesels produce.
Petrol won't die because the Americans and Japanese have the good sense not to put them in passenger vehicles. It's only in Europe where we drive diesel cars - the legislation is extremely favorable for them and not really a reflection on which cars produce the most pollution.
Hybrid is a great way to make the most of petrol tech, but there is a sliding scale of hybrid, and obviously the closer you get to the electric end, the less relevant the petrol engine becomes anyway.
That said, I'm considering a diesel as my next car because the savings on fuel and VED are considerable. That's nothing to do with how it works, and everything to do with how tax works these days.
Petrol won't die because the Americans and Japanese have the good sense not to put them in passenger vehicles. It's only in Europe where we drive diesel cars - the legislation is extremely favorable for them and not really a reflection on which cars produce the most pollution.
Hybrid is a great way to make the most of petrol tech, but there is a sliding scale of hybrid, and obviously the closer you get to the electric end, the less relevant the petrol engine becomes anyway.
That said, I'm considering a diesel as my next car because the savings on fuel and VED are considerable. That's nothing to do with how it works, and everything to do with how tax works these days.
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