Continued brake problems. Mark IV Fiesta. Can you help?
Discussion
Background.
Ford Fiesta Mark IV, I believe. 51 plate. 1.25 Zetec.
A little while back I had spongy brakes / a lot of brake peddle travel. The car then went in for its MOT and failed. Report said: RBT Service Brake Efficiency 49%. The mechanic said all the braking was only coming from the fronts. What he said anyway. Didn't say anything about whether it was handbrake or peddle.
I had a look at the brakes all round.
Fronts.
Current Discs are 18mm thickness each. Haynes manual says min required is 18mm, so all ok there. Marginal but should still be ok.
Inside pads are 4/5 mm and outside pads are about 7/8mm. Even wear for both sides, but insides have worn more than outsides. Haynes manual says min required is 1.5mm, so all ok there.
Rear brake shoes are 3/4 mms. Haynes manual says min required is 1.5mm, so all ok there.
There are no noticeable leaks from any of the cars rear brake cylinders or front calipers.
I noticed one of the handbrakes cables wasn't letting the handbrake arm on a rear shoe return to the stop position, so have replaced both cables. Note: Upon inspection one of old cables had seized up.
Then bleed all the four brakes, but the front drivers side nipple won't take an 8 or 9mm socket or spanner that the front passenger side did, as the nut appears to be unsymmetrical (is the best way I can describe it). I wonder if in the past it's had some grips on it. Don't want to hammer a socket on incase I can't get the socket off.
Anyway, bleeding of the remaining three was successful. Didn't see any air bubbles and the colour was good, even before the new stuff came through. But I haven't been able to bleed one of the brakes, as mentioned above.
But after all that, I still have the exact same spongy brakes and see no reason why the car won't fail it's MOT again.
An observation. I used the Gunson Eezibleed system and found that when I'd finished, the brake fluid was right up to the lip of the reservoir. Even past a small, what looks like a drainage hole, without it syphoning off any of the overfull brake fluid. If it is a drainage hole. I had to push the lid on with its protrusion attached to the underside of it (don't know what this is for), and mop up the excess brake build that was forced over the top. Is this normal?
Further Questions.
2. When putting the old shoes back on the rears, I didn't manually adjust the self adjusting ratchet on the shoes, i.e the pair of screwdrivers technique / pulling the shoes apart. I left if to the self adjusting ratchet, as I could hear the ratchet working away as I stood on the brakes. Is not manually adjusting them enough to cause the spongy brakes / a lot of travel problems? Should I manually adjust them?
3. I now have a lot more handbrake lever travel than before. Should I adjust the cable nut on the handbrake? (I had to back it right off to change the rear handbrake cables) I have a concern that this will only serve to pull the handbrake arm on the rear shoes to a position were they aren't returning to the stop position when the handbrake is off.
4. If Question No2 isn't the answer to my continued spongy brake peddle, should I change all discs, pads and shoes for new? But it does sound like I have enough life left on all of them.
Note: Had a look at the Master Cylinder but didn't see anything that appeared to be a leak.
5. If there is a problem with the Master Cylinder, what are the tell tale signs / what am I looking for?
With above brake materials life still being within tollence (allegedly), I'm at a loss as to what the problem could be.
Can you help?
Ford Fiesta Mark IV, I believe. 51 plate. 1.25 Zetec.
A little while back I had spongy brakes / a lot of brake peddle travel. The car then went in for its MOT and failed. Report said: RBT Service Brake Efficiency 49%. The mechanic said all the braking was only coming from the fronts. What he said anyway. Didn't say anything about whether it was handbrake or peddle.
I had a look at the brakes all round.
Fronts.
Current Discs are 18mm thickness each. Haynes manual says min required is 18mm, so all ok there. Marginal but should still be ok.
Inside pads are 4/5 mm and outside pads are about 7/8mm. Even wear for both sides, but insides have worn more than outsides. Haynes manual says min required is 1.5mm, so all ok there.
Rear brake shoes are 3/4 mms. Haynes manual says min required is 1.5mm, so all ok there.
There are no noticeable leaks from any of the cars rear brake cylinders or front calipers.
I noticed one of the handbrakes cables wasn't letting the handbrake arm on a rear shoe return to the stop position, so have replaced both cables. Note: Upon inspection one of old cables had seized up.
Then bleed all the four brakes, but the front drivers side nipple won't take an 8 or 9mm socket or spanner that the front passenger side did, as the nut appears to be unsymmetrical (is the best way I can describe it). I wonder if in the past it's had some grips on it. Don't want to hammer a socket on incase I can't get the socket off.
Anyway, bleeding of the remaining three was successful. Didn't see any air bubbles and the colour was good, even before the new stuff came through. But I haven't been able to bleed one of the brakes, as mentioned above.
But after all that, I still have the exact same spongy brakes and see no reason why the car won't fail it's MOT again.
An observation. I used the Gunson Eezibleed system and found that when I'd finished, the brake fluid was right up to the lip of the reservoir. Even past a small, what looks like a drainage hole, without it syphoning off any of the overfull brake fluid. If it is a drainage hole. I had to push the lid on with its protrusion attached to the underside of it (don't know what this is for), and mop up the excess brake build that was forced over the top. Is this normal?
Further Questions.
2. When putting the old shoes back on the rears, I didn't manually adjust the self adjusting ratchet on the shoes, i.e the pair of screwdrivers technique / pulling the shoes apart. I left if to the self adjusting ratchet, as I could hear the ratchet working away as I stood on the brakes. Is not manually adjusting them enough to cause the spongy brakes / a lot of travel problems? Should I manually adjust them?
3. I now have a lot more handbrake lever travel than before. Should I adjust the cable nut on the handbrake? (I had to back it right off to change the rear handbrake cables) I have a concern that this will only serve to pull the handbrake arm on the rear shoes to a position were they aren't returning to the stop position when the handbrake is off.
4. If Question No2 isn't the answer to my continued spongy brake peddle, should I change all discs, pads and shoes for new? But it does sound like I have enough life left on all of them.
Note: Had a look at the Master Cylinder but didn't see anything that appeared to be a leak.
5. If there is a problem with the Master Cylinder, what are the tell tale signs / what am I looking for?
With above brake materials life still being within tollence (allegedly), I'm at a loss as to what the problem could be.
Can you help?
Edited by jimsayshi on Friday 23 March 21:40
Edited by jimsayshi on Friday 23 March 21:50
I would start by removing the drums and adjusting the shoes up manualy, the adjusters dont always adjust enough. Also make sure the adjusters are ok and if need be remove them, clean them and refit. If your handbrake travel is more than normal and the service brake is only efficent on the front the fault I suspect will lie with the rear brakes.
You also need to have 50% + service (footbrake) efficency to pass an MOT.
You also need to have 50% + service (footbrake) efficency to pass an MOT.
Edited by roscozs on Friday 23 March 22:12
roscozs said:
I would start by removing the drums and adjusting the shoes up manualy, the adjusters dont always adjust enough. Also make sure the adjusters are ok and if need be remove them, clean them and refit. If your handbrake travel is more than normal and the service brake is only efficent on the front the fault I suspect will lie with the rear brakes.
You also need to have 50% + service (footbrake) efficency to pass an MOT.
Have you tried clamping the rubber hosed brake lines to see if it's the fronts or rears that are good. I.E, clamp the rears and a hard pedal means the fronts are good, rears possibly bad. Clamp the fronts and a hard pedal means the rears are good, fronts possibly bad?You also need to have 50% + service (footbrake) efficency to pass an MOT.
Edited by roscozs on Friday 23 March 22:12
Did you check that the rear wheel cylinders were free and that the pistons not seized?
Does the pedal pump up solid (how long does it take to come up) and hold or does it sink away?
With the pedal hard, start the engine to see what the servo is doing. If it sinks away a little its ok, if it stays solid then there may be an issue with the servo/vacuum pipes.
If the master cylinder is failing there is usually air bubbles in the reservoir or fluid leaking into the servo, harder to tell - sometimes a rusty line under the cylinder where fluid has stripped the paint off the servo.
Soft pedal that pumps up can be air in the system or poorly adjusted shoes. The latter will however give a solid pedal after a few pumps.
Its possible that the one caliper that you cant bleed is full of air - in which case no amount of bleeding will cure it.
One trick is to bleed air through the flexible connection to the caliper, though it may mean taking the caliper off so the air can escape from the highest point.
Does the pedal pump up solid (how long does it take to come up) and hold or does it sink away?
With the pedal hard, start the engine to see what the servo is doing. If it sinks away a little its ok, if it stays solid then there may be an issue with the servo/vacuum pipes.
If the master cylinder is failing there is usually air bubbles in the reservoir or fluid leaking into the servo, harder to tell - sometimes a rusty line under the cylinder where fluid has stripped the paint off the servo.
Soft pedal that pumps up can be air in the system or poorly adjusted shoes. The latter will however give a solid pedal after a few pumps.
Its possible that the one caliper that you cant bleed is full of air - in which case no amount of bleeding will cure it.
One trick is to bleed air through the flexible connection to the caliper, though it may mean taking the caliper off so the air can escape from the highest point.
With these feet said:
Did you check that the rear wheel cylinders were free and that the pistons not seized?
When taking the shoes off I'm sure I saw both rear wheel cylinder pistons move around a little, but I didn't give them a good poke to check.With these feet said:
Does the pedal pump up solid (how long does it take to come up) and hold or does it sink away?
With the pedal hard, start the engine to see what the servo is doing. If it sinks away a little its ok, if it stays solid then there may be an issue with the servo/vacuum pipes.
If the master cylinder is failing there is usually air bubbles in the reservoir or fluid leaking into the servo, harder to tell - sometimes a rusty line under the cylinder where fluid has stripped the paint off the servo.
Soft pedal that pumps up can be air in the system or poorly adjusted shoes. The latter will however give a solid pedal after a few pumps.
Its possible that the one caliper that you cant bleed is full of air - in which case no amount of bleeding will cure it.
One trick is to bleed air through the flexible connection to the caliper, though it may mean taking the caliper off so the air can escape from the highest point.
With the handbrake off, after about 5/6 pumps it pumps up a little harder, but defiantly not to a point that it's hard at the very top of the pedal travel. As there's still a lot of give in pedal. If I then pump the brake pedal with the handbrake on, I get a slightly firmer pedal that stops a little higher up the pedal travel, than when I pumped without the handbrake on.With the pedal hard, start the engine to see what the servo is doing. If it sinks away a little its ok, if it stays solid then there may be an issue with the servo/vacuum pipes.
If the master cylinder is failing there is usually air bubbles in the reservoir or fluid leaking into the servo, harder to tell - sometimes a rusty line under the cylinder where fluid has stripped the paint off the servo.
Soft pedal that pumps up can be air in the system or poorly adjusted shoes. The latter will however give a solid pedal after a few pumps.
Its possible that the one caliper that you cant bleed is full of air - in which case no amount of bleeding will cure it.
One trick is to bleed air through the flexible connection to the caliper, though it may mean taking the caliper off so the air can escape from the highest point.
On both occasions if pressure is then held down on it for a while, it stays put at that point. When the car is started up it then sinks down a little, an extra inch or so.
Edited by jimsayshi on Friday 23 March 23:06
Edited by jimsayshi on Friday 23 March 23:22
Although I am a "real Citroen" man, that drives a 40 year old Citroen DS and a 34 year old Citroen GS, I have been working/servicing a family Ford Fiesta Mark 4 for 10 years now. Incidentally the very same car for over 10 years. We buy cars to keep long term and not exchange every few years.
I believe your problem maybe what I consider to be a design "Achilles Heel" of this car. I have discovered that if (for whatever reason) the master cylinder runs dry (servicing/part replacement or fault), they can be (sometimes) incredibly hard to "re-prime". Infact they can be harder than any other car I myself have worked on. Sometimes the master cylinder reprimes and works brilliantly and virtually straight away , as easy as anything. Other times they can be virtually impossible to sort out.
I discovered this:-
This "impossible to get an effective brake pedal" despite intense amounts of "bleeding" and flushing through the system,sometimes using nearly a litre of brake fluid, I have discovered that it is *still* possible to have an airlock/bubble that must get stuck in the master cylinder itself, beneath the reservoir.
The solution for this problem appears to be disconnect all of the brake unions from the master cylinder. Keep topping up the reservoir and checking (it doesn't run out that quickly but you have to be on the ball). Blast the brake pedal(gentle then hard) until you get a "jet" of fluid from all 4 orifices from the master cylinder itself.
[Three of the four orifices on the master cylinder are visible whilst operating the brake pedal from the drivers seat through the gap under the opened bonnet. The fourth can either be assumed to be working if the other three are because it has the same "tap location" as one of the others, or use a mirror if you are alone]
(I use watering cans when the car is reassembled properly to flush the spilt brake fluid off the engine/and front right wing and then drive to a garage jet wash later).
Only when this is done (and you see the jets of brake fluid) then the master cylinder can be *seen and confirmed* to be working then deliberately *pause* and do nothing for a few moments. *Wait* until the fluid resumes pouring out of the master cylinder, and displaces the air that has been sucked in. I then repeat the "blast" on the brake pedal again to make sure. Then pause again until the fluid pours out. In reality I do it over 4 times to make absolutely sure.
Only then reattach the brake unions when the fluid is *pouring* out over your hands as you attach the unions. The letting the fluid pour out is the important part to remove the air lock, because this is where the air lock sits, and this air lock never seems to be removed by bleeding the wheels alone when it is established.
This "air" just must go back and forth in the system with brake depressions. Obviously the wider "architecture" in the master cylinder, compared to the brake lines themselves, allows this air (at the top of the system of course) to be 'bypassed' by the fluid. So the air remains in situ.
However although this 'air' is bypassed by the fluid, under proper pressure this air of course compresses, and thus causes poor brake performance on *all* of the wheels (because it is in the master cylinder itself), rather than just one poor performing wheel with air in its individual line.
Even when I have poured a litre "through" the system til the litre comes out at the wheels, the air lock has been shown to still sit there (as pedal still spongy and no effective brakes). Resulting in the scratching of heads as there appears to be no obvious apparent fault.
NOW BACK TO THAT JET BLASTING OF BRAKE FLUID OUT THE MASTER CLYINDER
Usually the orifice(s) at the back of the master cylinder (against the bulk head) blasts out first. In this case let this one pour out as described above and reattach its respective brake line and *then* move onto the forward ones (forward as in the forward unions on on the front of the master cylinder towards the front of the car (which happens to be for the left front wheel and rear right wheel).
Only when this is achieved can the brake bleeding (on the front calipers and rear wheel cylinders) be (re) bleed.
Please note when I have brake bleed all the wheels before (properly) *without* having first flushed the master cylinder as described above, I have still sometimes been left with the spongy (sometimes dangerous pedal). That is why I say that "air" must just sit there "stuck".
Only when the airlock in the mastercylinder is removed does the brake pedal become normal ((for a Ford), I must admit I have never yet driven a Ford whose brakes I pleased with). I think any person who has driven a 'real' Citroen (the older original ones) would say the same. I have never liked the lack of "feel" and feedback of Ford brakes. Shame because I have a desire for a Focus RS. I hope the brakes are "in order" on those cars.
MASTER CYLINDER FAILURE
I have had a total master cylinder failure before on the Ford Fiesta Mark 4. I mean total failure. No jets of fluid would be pumped from it at all (with no brake lines on).A one off? or sloppy Ford engineering? This appears to have been caused by a caliper seizure on the front disc. The back pressure must have 'somehow' effected a seal.
STICKING CALIPERS
With "sticking calipers" I have discovered it is not worth taking it off to hopefully free it up and put it back on by, extracting it, lubricating it, rotating the pistons etc and putting it back on.
They work for a while and then always, in my experience, stick again. Save yourself the bother and get a new/reconditioned caliper as soon as it happens the first time. I believe the Master Cylinder failure was brought on by the sticking caliper. It happened just after the second time the caliper stuck.
I spoke to the one garage I get parts from. The sticking calipers on Ford Fiestas are very common. The metal used in them suffers from corrosion. Then they rust up, seals get affected etc and wedge.
MASTER CYLINDERS (again)
In 25 years of owning a variety of classic and modern cars I have only ever come across three (and a suspected 4th) master cylinder failure. One of these was not the master cylinders fault, but caused by someone placing the wrong brake fluid in the system. Not all rubber seals and fluid are compatible.The seals expand with the wrong fluid and "wedge" the system, not allowing brake release, and requiring a new master cylinder.
However one of these 'natural'master cylinder failures was on my (mothers) Ford Fiesta Mark 4. So it could be the master cylinder, but unlikely.
Only buy a genuine Ford master cylinder. Yes it is (or was last year in 2011) £185-200.
Initially I bought a cheap replacement one from a motor factor shop (£60-90) thinking I was saving lots of money and how much of a rip off Fords price was ( i still believe it is a rip off)but:-...
The pattern non genuine Ford part (despite being listed as fitting a Fiesta Mark 4) was fatter than the original Ford part. The result was the brake pipes "scrubbed" on the side of the battery, so not good for abrasion and rubbing over time!. The threads were also the wrong size for the rear brake lines, and the clips used to attach the reservoir to the master cylinder itself "allowed" about 2mm up/down movement. A rolling road test revealed the rear brakes were weak and right on the legal minimum.
So as your rear brakes are weak, do you have a proper Ford master cylinder, and not one of these after market alternatives? If it is an aftermarket cylinder maybe consider replacing it with a genuine Ford one.
To me the weak rear brakes is also an indication that you need to take the rear hub off and manually adjust them up. So manually adjust them and do the master cylinder procedure described above.
I thought maybe my suppliers had boxed up the wrong master cylinder for me in light of this. A telephone call and check of numbers revealed (in their words) I had the correct one for a Fiesta Mark 4 (registration given too).
I backed up what I had found out, with an independent (official) motor engineer examination, and got a refund. I sent a letter back with the unit outlining the issues to the suppliers to forward to the manufacturers. One month later the same unit was still on sale, and probably still is! I like to do things the "nice" way pointing things out.Its all a learning process with feedback. But you can see why people get legal from the outset now. I do often wonder whether I should make this a trading standards thing or not.
I am writing this without being able to see your posting. You talk of your bleeding valves not taking an 8mm/9mm spanner? I can tell you that it is an 11mm spanner that you require. Well it is on a 1999 Fiesta mark 4, so I assume on your 2002/3? was it Fiesta mark 4 that would be the same size.
Other points I have found whilst working on these cars:- pop your rear hubs off once in a while (every few years). They are easy to do on these cars and adjust up the rear brake shoes/cables. The auto-adjust mechanisms are not reliable.
The handbrake will naturally come back brilliantly then. At first I tried to take up the slack with extra nuts on the handbrake itself taking up the slack. But this isn't really the proper way. It should only be done after the rear drum assembly has been inspected and adjusted. You can also strip the thread of the handbrake cable itself this way due to the extra tension, so be careful. If you do this adjustment solely on he handbrake cable (not recommended) use a "series" of nuts to spread the thread load.
I can't remember what else you ask,
but from what I read I really strongly suggest to all that read this, make sure your master cylinder itself does not have that air lock that I have experienced. Only then get a new master cylinder (rarely needed but happened to me), and go into your normal brake bleeding routine.
Incidentally I have discovered that allowing a few good turns out on the bleeding valves (and a few in again , then repeating) to be the way forward. Little turns/nips out on the valves on this car (well my one) just doesn't seem to do the trick. Yes its more inconvenient to take your spanner on/off a few more times.....but it works.
Mike
I believe your problem maybe what I consider to be a design "Achilles Heel" of this car. I have discovered that if (for whatever reason) the master cylinder runs dry (servicing/part replacement or fault), they can be (sometimes) incredibly hard to "re-prime". Infact they can be harder than any other car I myself have worked on. Sometimes the master cylinder reprimes and works brilliantly and virtually straight away , as easy as anything. Other times they can be virtually impossible to sort out.
I discovered this:-
This "impossible to get an effective brake pedal" despite intense amounts of "bleeding" and flushing through the system,sometimes using nearly a litre of brake fluid, I have discovered that it is *still* possible to have an airlock/bubble that must get stuck in the master cylinder itself, beneath the reservoir.
The solution for this problem appears to be disconnect all of the brake unions from the master cylinder. Keep topping up the reservoir and checking (it doesn't run out that quickly but you have to be on the ball). Blast the brake pedal(gentle then hard) until you get a "jet" of fluid from all 4 orifices from the master cylinder itself.
[Three of the four orifices on the master cylinder are visible whilst operating the brake pedal from the drivers seat through the gap under the opened bonnet. The fourth can either be assumed to be working if the other three are because it has the same "tap location" as one of the others, or use a mirror if you are alone]
(I use watering cans when the car is reassembled properly to flush the spilt brake fluid off the engine/and front right wing and then drive to a garage jet wash later).
Only when this is done (and you see the jets of brake fluid) then the master cylinder can be *seen and confirmed* to be working then deliberately *pause* and do nothing for a few moments. *Wait* until the fluid resumes pouring out of the master cylinder, and displaces the air that has been sucked in. I then repeat the "blast" on the brake pedal again to make sure. Then pause again until the fluid pours out. In reality I do it over 4 times to make absolutely sure.
Only then reattach the brake unions when the fluid is *pouring* out over your hands as you attach the unions. The letting the fluid pour out is the important part to remove the air lock, because this is where the air lock sits, and this air lock never seems to be removed by bleeding the wheels alone when it is established.
This "air" just must go back and forth in the system with brake depressions. Obviously the wider "architecture" in the master cylinder, compared to the brake lines themselves, allows this air (at the top of the system of course) to be 'bypassed' by the fluid. So the air remains in situ.
However although this 'air' is bypassed by the fluid, under proper pressure this air of course compresses, and thus causes poor brake performance on *all* of the wheels (because it is in the master cylinder itself), rather than just one poor performing wheel with air in its individual line.
Even when I have poured a litre "through" the system til the litre comes out at the wheels, the air lock has been shown to still sit there (as pedal still spongy and no effective brakes). Resulting in the scratching of heads as there appears to be no obvious apparent fault.
NOW BACK TO THAT JET BLASTING OF BRAKE FLUID OUT THE MASTER CLYINDER
Usually the orifice(s) at the back of the master cylinder (against the bulk head) blasts out first. In this case let this one pour out as described above and reattach its respective brake line and *then* move onto the forward ones (forward as in the forward unions on on the front of the master cylinder towards the front of the car (which happens to be for the left front wheel and rear right wheel).
Only when this is achieved can the brake bleeding (on the front calipers and rear wheel cylinders) be (re) bleed.
Please note when I have brake bleed all the wheels before (properly) *without* having first flushed the master cylinder as described above, I have still sometimes been left with the spongy (sometimes dangerous pedal). That is why I say that "air" must just sit there "stuck".
Only when the airlock in the mastercylinder is removed does the brake pedal become normal ((for a Ford), I must admit I have never yet driven a Ford whose brakes I pleased with). I think any person who has driven a 'real' Citroen (the older original ones) would say the same. I have never liked the lack of "feel" and feedback of Ford brakes. Shame because I have a desire for a Focus RS. I hope the brakes are "in order" on those cars.
MASTER CYLINDER FAILURE
I have had a total master cylinder failure before on the Ford Fiesta Mark 4. I mean total failure. No jets of fluid would be pumped from it at all (with no brake lines on).A one off? or sloppy Ford engineering? This appears to have been caused by a caliper seizure on the front disc. The back pressure must have 'somehow' effected a seal.
STICKING CALIPERS
With "sticking calipers" I have discovered it is not worth taking it off to hopefully free it up and put it back on by, extracting it, lubricating it, rotating the pistons etc and putting it back on.
They work for a while and then always, in my experience, stick again. Save yourself the bother and get a new/reconditioned caliper as soon as it happens the first time. I believe the Master Cylinder failure was brought on by the sticking caliper. It happened just after the second time the caliper stuck.
I spoke to the one garage I get parts from. The sticking calipers on Ford Fiestas are very common. The metal used in them suffers from corrosion. Then they rust up, seals get affected etc and wedge.
MASTER CYLINDERS (again)
In 25 years of owning a variety of classic and modern cars I have only ever come across three (and a suspected 4th) master cylinder failure. One of these was not the master cylinders fault, but caused by someone placing the wrong brake fluid in the system. Not all rubber seals and fluid are compatible.The seals expand with the wrong fluid and "wedge" the system, not allowing brake release, and requiring a new master cylinder.
However one of these 'natural'master cylinder failures was on my (mothers) Ford Fiesta Mark 4. So it could be the master cylinder, but unlikely.
Only buy a genuine Ford master cylinder. Yes it is (or was last year in 2011) £185-200.
Initially I bought a cheap replacement one from a motor factor shop (£60-90) thinking I was saving lots of money and how much of a rip off Fords price was ( i still believe it is a rip off)but:-...
The pattern non genuine Ford part (despite being listed as fitting a Fiesta Mark 4) was fatter than the original Ford part. The result was the brake pipes "scrubbed" on the side of the battery, so not good for abrasion and rubbing over time!. The threads were also the wrong size for the rear brake lines, and the clips used to attach the reservoir to the master cylinder itself "allowed" about 2mm up/down movement. A rolling road test revealed the rear brakes were weak and right on the legal minimum.
So as your rear brakes are weak, do you have a proper Ford master cylinder, and not one of these after market alternatives? If it is an aftermarket cylinder maybe consider replacing it with a genuine Ford one.
To me the weak rear brakes is also an indication that you need to take the rear hub off and manually adjust them up. So manually adjust them and do the master cylinder procedure described above.
I thought maybe my suppliers had boxed up the wrong master cylinder for me in light of this. A telephone call and check of numbers revealed (in their words) I had the correct one for a Fiesta Mark 4 (registration given too).
I backed up what I had found out, with an independent (official) motor engineer examination, and got a refund. I sent a letter back with the unit outlining the issues to the suppliers to forward to the manufacturers. One month later the same unit was still on sale, and probably still is! I like to do things the "nice" way pointing things out.Its all a learning process with feedback. But you can see why people get legal from the outset now. I do often wonder whether I should make this a trading standards thing or not.
I am writing this without being able to see your posting. You talk of your bleeding valves not taking an 8mm/9mm spanner? I can tell you that it is an 11mm spanner that you require. Well it is on a 1999 Fiesta mark 4, so I assume on your 2002/3? was it Fiesta mark 4 that would be the same size.
Other points I have found whilst working on these cars:- pop your rear hubs off once in a while (every few years). They are easy to do on these cars and adjust up the rear brake shoes/cables. The auto-adjust mechanisms are not reliable.
The handbrake will naturally come back brilliantly then. At first I tried to take up the slack with extra nuts on the handbrake itself taking up the slack. But this isn't really the proper way. It should only be done after the rear drum assembly has been inspected and adjusted. You can also strip the thread of the handbrake cable itself this way due to the extra tension, so be careful. If you do this adjustment solely on he handbrake cable (not recommended) use a "series" of nuts to spread the thread load.
I can't remember what else you ask,
but from what I read I really strongly suggest to all that read this, make sure your master cylinder itself does not have that air lock that I have experienced. Only then get a new master cylinder (rarely needed but happened to me), and go into your normal brake bleeding routine.
Incidentally I have discovered that allowing a few good turns out on the bleeding valves (and a few in again , then repeating) to be the way forward. Little turns/nips out on the valves on this car (well my one) just doesn't seem to do the trick. Yes its more inconvenient to take your spanner on/off a few more times.....but it works.
Mike
Edited by backpack on Monday 4th June 18:46
Edited by backpack on Tuesday 5th June 22:31
backpack said:
Although I am a "real Citroen" man, that drives a 40 year old Citroen DS and a 34 year old Citroen GS, I have been working/servicing a family Ford Fiesta Mark 4 for 10 years now. Incidentally the very same car for over 10 years. We buy cars to keep long term and not exchange every few years.
I believe your problem maybe what I consider to be a design "Achilles Heel" of this car. I have discovered that if (for whatever reason) the master cylinder runs dry (servicing/part replacement or fault), they can be (sometimes) incredibly hard to "re-prime". Infact they can be harder than any other car I myself have worked on. Sometimes the master cylinder reprimes and works brilliantly and virtually straight away , as easy as anything. Other times they can be virtually impossible to sort out.
I discovered this:-
This "impossible to get an effective brake pedal" despite intense amounts of "bleeding" and flushing through the system,sometimes using nearly a litre of brake fluid, I have discovered that it is *still* possible to have an airlock/bubble that must get stuck in the master cylinder itself, beneath the reservoir.
The solution for this problem appears to be disconnect all of the brake unions from the master cylinder. Keep topping up the reservoir and checking (it doesn't run out that quickly but you have to be on the ball). Blast the brake pedal(gentle then hard) until you get a "jet" of fluid from all 4 orifices from the master cylinder itself.
(I use watering cans when the car is reassembled properly to flush the spilt brake fluid off the engine/and front right wing and then drive to a garage jet wash later).
Only when this is done (and you see the jets of brake fluid) then the master cylinder can be *seen and confirmed* to be working then deliberately *pause* and do nothing for a few moments. *Wait* until the fluid resumes pouring out of the master cylinder, and displaces the air that has been sucked in. I then repeat the "blast" on the brake pedal again to make sure. Then pause again until the fluid pours out. In reality I do it over 4 times to make absolutely sure.
Only then reattach the brake unions when the fluid is *pouring* out over your hands as you attach the unions. The letting the fluid pour out is the important part to remove the air lock, because this is where the air lock sits, and this air lock never seems to be removed by bleeding the wheels alone when it is established.
This "air" just must go back and forth in the system with brake depressions. Even when I have poured a litre "through" the system til the litre comes out at the wheels, the air lock has been shown to still sit there (as pedal still spongy and no effective brakes).
NOW BACK TO THAT JET BLASTING OF BRAKE FLUID OUT THE MASTER CLYINDER
Usually the orifice(s) at the back of the master cylinder (against the bulk head) blasts out first. In this case let this one pour out as described above and reattach its respective brake line and *then* move onto the forward ones (forward as in the forward unions on on the front of the master cylinder towards the fornt of the car (which happens to be for the left front wheel and rear right wheel).
Only when this is achieved can the brake bleeding (on the front calipers and rear wheel cylinders) be (re) bleed.
Please note when I have brake bleed all the wheels before (properly) *without* having first flushed the master cylinder as described above, I have still sometimes been left with the spongy (sometimes dangerous pedal). That is why I say that "air" must just sit there "stuck".
Only when the airlock in the mastercylinder is removed does the brake pedal become normal ((for a Ford), I must admit I have never yet driven a Ford whose brakes I am pleased with).
MASTER CYLINDER FAILURE
I have had a total master cylinder failure before on the Ford Fiesta Mark 4. This appears to have been caused by a caliper seizure on the front disc. The back pressure must have 'somehow' effected a seal.
STICKING CALIPERS
With "sticking calipers" I have discovered it is not worth taking it off to hopefully free it up and put it back on by, extracting it, lubricating it, rotating the pistons etc and putting it back on.
They work for a while and then always, in my experience, stick again. Save yourself the bother and get a new/reconditioned caliper as soon as it happens the first time. I believe the Master Cylinder failure was brought on by the sticking caliper. It happened just after the second time the caliper stuck.
In 25 years of owning a variety of classic and modern cars I have only ever come across three (and a suspected 4th) master cylinder failure. But one of them was on my (mothers) Ford Fiesta Mark 4.
Only buy a genuine Ford master cylinder. Yes it is (or was last year in 2011) £185-200.
Initially I bought a cheap replacement one from a motor factor shop (£60-90) thinking I was saving lots of money and how much of a rip off Fords price was ( i still believe it is a rip off)but:-...
The pattern non genuine Ford part (despite being listed as fitting a Fiesta Mark 4) was fatter than the original Ford part. The result was the brake pipes "scrubbed" on the side of the battery, so not good for abrasion and rubbing over time!. The threads were also the wrong size for the rear brake lines, and the clips used to attach the reservoir to the master cylinder itself "allowed" about 2mm up/down movement. A rolling road test revealed the rear brakes were weak and right on the legal minimum.
I thought maybe they boxed up the wrong unit. A telephone call and check of numbers revealed (in their words) I had the correct one for a Fiesta Mark 4 (registration given too).
I backed up what I had found out, with an independent (offical) motor engineer examination, and got a refund. I sent a letter back with the unit outlining the issues to the suppliers to forward to the manufacturers. One month later the same unit was still on sale. I like to do things the "nice" way pointing things out.Its all a learning process with feedback. But you can see why people get legal from the outset now.
I am writing this without being able to see your posting. You talk of your bleeding valves not taking an 8mm/9mm spanner? I can tell you that it is an 11mm spanner that you require. Well it is on a 1999 Fiesta mark 4, so I assume on your 2002/3? was it Fiesta mark 4 that would be the same size.
Other points I have found whilst working on these cars:- pop your rear hubs off once in a while (every few years). They are easy to do on these cars and adjust up the rear brake shoes/cables.
The handbrake will come back brilliantly then. At first I tried to take up the slack with extra nuts on the handbrake itself taking up the slack. You can strip the thread of the handbrake cable itself this way, so be careful. If you do do this use a "series" of nuts to spread the thread load.
I can't remember what else you ask,
but from what I read I really strongly suggest to all that read this, make sure your master cylinder itself does not have that air lock that I have experienced. Only then get a new master cylinder (rarely needed but happened to me), and go into your normal brake bleeding routine.
Incidentally I have discovered that allowing a few good turns out on the bleeding valves (and a few in again , then repeating) to be the way forward. Little turns/nips out on the valves on this car (well my one) just doesn't seem to do the trick. Yes its more inconvenient to take your spanner on/off a few more times.....but it works.
Mike
Brilliant reply Mike.I believe your problem maybe what I consider to be a design "Achilles Heel" of this car. I have discovered that if (for whatever reason) the master cylinder runs dry (servicing/part replacement or fault), they can be (sometimes) incredibly hard to "re-prime". Infact they can be harder than any other car I myself have worked on. Sometimes the master cylinder reprimes and works brilliantly and virtually straight away , as easy as anything. Other times they can be virtually impossible to sort out.
I discovered this:-
This "impossible to get an effective brake pedal" despite intense amounts of "bleeding" and flushing through the system,sometimes using nearly a litre of brake fluid, I have discovered that it is *still* possible to have an airlock/bubble that must get stuck in the master cylinder itself, beneath the reservoir.
The solution for this problem appears to be disconnect all of the brake unions from the master cylinder. Keep topping up the reservoir and checking (it doesn't run out that quickly but you have to be on the ball). Blast the brake pedal(gentle then hard) until you get a "jet" of fluid from all 4 orifices from the master cylinder itself.
(I use watering cans when the car is reassembled properly to flush the spilt brake fluid off the engine/and front right wing and then drive to a garage jet wash later).
Only when this is done (and you see the jets of brake fluid) then the master cylinder can be *seen and confirmed* to be working then deliberately *pause* and do nothing for a few moments. *Wait* until the fluid resumes pouring out of the master cylinder, and displaces the air that has been sucked in. I then repeat the "blast" on the brake pedal again to make sure. Then pause again until the fluid pours out. In reality I do it over 4 times to make absolutely sure.
Only then reattach the brake unions when the fluid is *pouring* out over your hands as you attach the unions. The letting the fluid pour out is the important part to remove the air lock, because this is where the air lock sits, and this air lock never seems to be removed by bleeding the wheels alone when it is established.
This "air" just must go back and forth in the system with brake depressions. Even when I have poured a litre "through" the system til the litre comes out at the wheels, the air lock has been shown to still sit there (as pedal still spongy and no effective brakes).
NOW BACK TO THAT JET BLASTING OF BRAKE FLUID OUT THE MASTER CLYINDER
Usually the orifice(s) at the back of the master cylinder (against the bulk head) blasts out first. In this case let this one pour out as described above and reattach its respective brake line and *then* move onto the forward ones (forward as in the forward unions on on the front of the master cylinder towards the fornt of the car (which happens to be for the left front wheel and rear right wheel).
Only when this is achieved can the brake bleeding (on the front calipers and rear wheel cylinders) be (re) bleed.
Please note when I have brake bleed all the wheels before (properly) *without* having first flushed the master cylinder as described above, I have still sometimes been left with the spongy (sometimes dangerous pedal). That is why I say that "air" must just sit there "stuck".
Only when the airlock in the mastercylinder is removed does the brake pedal become normal ((for a Ford), I must admit I have never yet driven a Ford whose brakes I am pleased with).
MASTER CYLINDER FAILURE
I have had a total master cylinder failure before on the Ford Fiesta Mark 4. This appears to have been caused by a caliper seizure on the front disc. The back pressure must have 'somehow' effected a seal.
STICKING CALIPERS
With "sticking calipers" I have discovered it is not worth taking it off to hopefully free it up and put it back on by, extracting it, lubricating it, rotating the pistons etc and putting it back on.
They work for a while and then always, in my experience, stick again. Save yourself the bother and get a new/reconditioned caliper as soon as it happens the first time. I believe the Master Cylinder failure was brought on by the sticking caliper. It happened just after the second time the caliper stuck.
In 25 years of owning a variety of classic and modern cars I have only ever come across three (and a suspected 4th) master cylinder failure. But one of them was on my (mothers) Ford Fiesta Mark 4.
Only buy a genuine Ford master cylinder. Yes it is (or was last year in 2011) £185-200.
Initially I bought a cheap replacement one from a motor factor shop (£60-90) thinking I was saving lots of money and how much of a rip off Fords price was ( i still believe it is a rip off)but:-...
The pattern non genuine Ford part (despite being listed as fitting a Fiesta Mark 4) was fatter than the original Ford part. The result was the brake pipes "scrubbed" on the side of the battery, so not good for abrasion and rubbing over time!. The threads were also the wrong size for the rear brake lines, and the clips used to attach the reservoir to the master cylinder itself "allowed" about 2mm up/down movement. A rolling road test revealed the rear brakes were weak and right on the legal minimum.
I thought maybe they boxed up the wrong unit. A telephone call and check of numbers revealed (in their words) I had the correct one for a Fiesta Mark 4 (registration given too).
I backed up what I had found out, with an independent (offical) motor engineer examination, and got a refund. I sent a letter back with the unit outlining the issues to the suppliers to forward to the manufacturers. One month later the same unit was still on sale. I like to do things the "nice" way pointing things out.Its all a learning process with feedback. But you can see why people get legal from the outset now.
I am writing this without being able to see your posting. You talk of your bleeding valves not taking an 8mm/9mm spanner? I can tell you that it is an 11mm spanner that you require. Well it is on a 1999 Fiesta mark 4, so I assume on your 2002/3? was it Fiesta mark 4 that would be the same size.
Other points I have found whilst working on these cars:- pop your rear hubs off once in a while (every few years). They are easy to do on these cars and adjust up the rear brake shoes/cables.
The handbrake will come back brilliantly then. At first I tried to take up the slack with extra nuts on the handbrake itself taking up the slack. You can strip the thread of the handbrake cable itself this way, so be careful. If you do do this use a "series" of nuts to spread the thread load.
I can't remember what else you ask,
but from what I read I really strongly suggest to all that read this, make sure your master cylinder itself does not have that air lock that I have experienced. Only then get a new master cylinder (rarely needed but happened to me), and go into your normal brake bleeding routine.
Incidentally I have discovered that allowing a few good turns out on the bleeding valves (and a few in again , then repeating) to be the way forward. Little turns/nips out on the valves on this car (well my one) just doesn't seem to do the trick. Yes its more inconvenient to take your spanner on/off a few more times.....but it works.
Mike
I have just carried out a nut and bolt restoration on a mk3 Fiesta RS Turbo (documented in another thread) and had major problems with the brakes.
In the end I sent it to a local garage to sort. Reading what you said I do believe that this was the problem with mine. I used a new master cylinder (as well as everything else being new...) and could not get the brake pedal to firm up.
I tried manual bleeding as well as pressure bleeding many, many times with no joy.
I know the garage have now sorted it.
Good luck to the op!
I replied to this post before.
Additional information:-
I also just happened to have put rear brake shoes on the Fiesta Mark 4 that was mentioned in my reply before and has been in family for over 10 years. This included a change of one rear wheel cylinder too.
I noticed that despite having perfectly free and non seized up "working" rear brake adjustors....they do not work with the brake drum on. They work with the drum off however! So it actually makes their design redundant. So in other words you must take off the rear drums to adjust the rear brakes after all. So what is the point of having a so called auto adjustor anyway.
Take the brake drum off so the shoes are "free" and they will adjust up the slack with foot brake depressions.
Several cycles of drums/hubs on/off, with all manner of footbrake and handbrake cycles produced the same results every time. And this is on brand new shoes and freed up adjustors. (So no rust or sticking mechanisms).
So in other words the Ford rear brake adjustors never actually work in situ in the drum and whole complete assembly. I tried many times.
Another important point I noticed.
Unlike my other cars, which always naturally adjust up the rear wheel cylinders to *take up* the slack between themselves and connecting with the brake shoe mechanism (note I am *not*talking about the slack between the brake shoe and the drum, but that slack/gap between the end of the wheel cylinder and the shoe mechanism).....a gap was left. This gap can be huge... 1/2" plus.
On 'normal" bleeding that would suffice on my other cars, I notice that this gap still remained as it reestablished itself when brake pedal was released, and the vacuum suction drew the pistons inwards.
This gap obviously further makes the appalling rear brake performance on these cars worse, as the first part initially is taking up slack and producing no braking effort.
With this car in particular you *really* need to have someone exerting considerable pressure on the brake pedal and then very quickly (more so than other cars I think) open the bleed valve and nip it closed as the brake pedal crashes down and you have purged a jet of brake fluid from the valve.
This will flare out and push the pistons up to and connect with the shoes, and hold them there. This will take up the slack and then the internal vacuum on brake pedal release with these cars has been shifted. So the rear brakes come on earlier.
I don't think any of these pressure bleed kits will be adequate on these cars. I really think you need someone to properly and strongly operate the brake pedal.
To give some indication of just how "weak" the Ford design on this car is on the rear brakes:-
My family Fiesta in question has just passed its MOT. New Master cylinder needed the other year along with one front brake caliper. The car has had new rear brake shoes/ and one wheel cylinder as of last week, for the MOT. (The above gap to which I refer was present on both the new and old wheel cylinder, so its not a question of the newer one having less internal friction).
With a mostly new system , the cars braking system should be operating "as new" and close to 100% potential of its original design specification.
Yet still with the brake pedal held by an operator fully down (on a properly adjusted system) I can still just turn the rear wheels by hand (This car has no weight sensors on the rear brakes). The handbrake is very strong though, a different matter.
I really have to say this sort of Ford engineering does not inspire me with confidence in the brand. A lot is brilliant about this Fords engineering..but not the brakes.
(Citroens (many models) /Alfa Romeo with the odd other car brand thrown in has been my car background, and I thus generally set my standard bar accordingly. I really hope Ford has moved forward a lot since 1999 when this car was manufactured. Especially because I would like a high end Focus RS/ST sometime.
Ford won people over with cheaper prices for cars for the masses. I still think this cheapness and design flaws sometimes show through.
I am well aware that rear brakes have to be weaker than the front for obvious "nose dive/back lifting situations. It seems far weaker than I would like. A lot of these fiesta mark 4's do not have ABS. Ours does not. I don't like the idea of weak rear brakes pushing too much braking force to the front, and promoting lock up.
I know its a fine balance with many factors to consider , but the balance just does not feel right to me. And remember this is on a car that has just passed its MOT. To be fair to Ford I have not had to supercritically measure the fore/aft brake differences on my other cars. But that is due to the fact that I have never had brake component failure on them, or MOT failures due to weak brakes.
Try it for yourselves if you do not go along with what I say, then you will see. Place your Fiesta on axle stands so all four wheels are in the air. Get a brake operator to hold the pedal and certain pressures and then go around and feel/rotate all the wheels on the car.
You may be surprised.
So I do really recommend going into the rear brakes sometime and adjusting them up to get them as strong as possible.
Additional information:-
I also just happened to have put rear brake shoes on the Fiesta Mark 4 that was mentioned in my reply before and has been in family for over 10 years. This included a change of one rear wheel cylinder too.
I noticed that despite having perfectly free and non seized up "working" rear brake adjustors....they do not work with the brake drum on. They work with the drum off however! So it actually makes their design redundant. So in other words you must take off the rear drums to adjust the rear brakes after all. So what is the point of having a so called auto adjustor anyway.
Take the brake drum off so the shoes are "free" and they will adjust up the slack with foot brake depressions.
Several cycles of drums/hubs on/off, with all manner of footbrake and handbrake cycles produced the same results every time. And this is on brand new shoes and freed up adjustors. (So no rust or sticking mechanisms).
So in other words the Ford rear brake adjustors never actually work in situ in the drum and whole complete assembly. I tried many times.
Another important point I noticed.
Unlike my other cars, which always naturally adjust up the rear wheel cylinders to *take up* the slack between themselves and connecting with the brake shoe mechanism (note I am *not*talking about the slack between the brake shoe and the drum, but that slack/gap between the end of the wheel cylinder and the shoe mechanism).....a gap was left. This gap can be huge... 1/2" plus.
On 'normal" bleeding that would suffice on my other cars, I notice that this gap still remained as it reestablished itself when brake pedal was released, and the vacuum suction drew the pistons inwards.
This gap obviously further makes the appalling rear brake performance on these cars worse, as the first part initially is taking up slack and producing no braking effort.
With this car in particular you *really* need to have someone exerting considerable pressure on the brake pedal and then very quickly (more so than other cars I think) open the bleed valve and nip it closed as the brake pedal crashes down and you have purged a jet of brake fluid from the valve.
This will flare out and push the pistons up to and connect with the shoes, and hold them there. This will take up the slack and then the internal vacuum on brake pedal release with these cars has been shifted. So the rear brakes come on earlier.
I don't think any of these pressure bleed kits will be adequate on these cars. I really think you need someone to properly and strongly operate the brake pedal.
To give some indication of just how "weak" the Ford design on this car is on the rear brakes:-
My family Fiesta in question has just passed its MOT. New Master cylinder needed the other year along with one front brake caliper. The car has had new rear brake shoes/ and one wheel cylinder as of last week, for the MOT. (The above gap to which I refer was present on both the new and old wheel cylinder, so its not a question of the newer one having less internal friction).
With a mostly new system , the cars braking system should be operating "as new" and close to 100% potential of its original design specification.
Yet still with the brake pedal held by an operator fully down (on a properly adjusted system) I can still just turn the rear wheels by hand (This car has no weight sensors on the rear brakes). The handbrake is very strong though, a different matter.
I really have to say this sort of Ford engineering does not inspire me with confidence in the brand. A lot is brilliant about this Fords engineering..but not the brakes.
(Citroens (many models) /Alfa Romeo with the odd other car brand thrown in has been my car background, and I thus generally set my standard bar accordingly. I really hope Ford has moved forward a lot since 1999 when this car was manufactured. Especially because I would like a high end Focus RS/ST sometime.
Ford won people over with cheaper prices for cars for the masses. I still think this cheapness and design flaws sometimes show through.
I am well aware that rear brakes have to be weaker than the front for obvious "nose dive/back lifting situations. It seems far weaker than I would like. A lot of these fiesta mark 4's do not have ABS. Ours does not. I don't like the idea of weak rear brakes pushing too much braking force to the front, and promoting lock up.
I know its a fine balance with many factors to consider , but the balance just does not feel right to me. And remember this is on a car that has just passed its MOT. To be fair to Ford I have not had to supercritically measure the fore/aft brake differences on my other cars. But that is due to the fact that I have never had brake component failure on them, or MOT failures due to weak brakes.
Try it for yourselves if you do not go along with what I say, then you will see. Place your Fiesta on axle stands so all four wheels are in the air. Get a brake operator to hold the pedal and certain pressures and then go around and feel/rotate all the wheels on the car.
You may be surprised.
So I do really recommend going into the rear brakes sometime and adjusting them up to get them as strong as possible.
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