Major accident on foggy M5

[MarkRSi]

Right I suspect I'm going to get rogered by the dreaded repost police...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17497711

And looks like the fingers are been pointed at the bus driver...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17500107




Wasn't there a major accident on the M5 a few months ago too?

[KardioKate]

MarkRSi said:

Wasn't there a major accident on the M5 a few months ago too?

November 4th.

[Kinky]

MarkRSi said:

Right I suspect I'm going to get rogered by the dreaded repost police...

Not at all

But here you go

http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[CBR JGWRR]

Still, perhaps it's ok to have one in N, P & E, it is news after all...

[Six Fiend]

KardioKate said:

MarkRSi said:

Wasn't there a major accident on the M5 a few months ago too?

November 4th.

About 120-130 miles south at Taunton.

[Eric Mc]

Did anyone notice the advert on the side of teh bus which said "Another fine .... you've gotten me into".

I couldn't make out the missing word but it was obviousl;y based on the old catchphrse of Oliver Hardy when the word would have been, of course, "mess".

I couldn't help thinking it was appropriate.

[Steffan]

There is something very odd with this accident I fear.

Dreadful accident very sad and it does remind us of the danger of motorway travel.

The lorry ran into the bus at the back and the bus driver has been charged with Dangerous Driving. A I understand it. That seems most unusual to me.

I drove past today on the Northbound carriageway. Obviously a very serious accident.

Cameras and full Accident investigation Unit in full swing.

Something strikes me as odd in the speed of the charge against the bus driver and the damage to the rear of the bus.

I do wonder how the Bus driver can have been driving dangerously from the rear. The police must be certain that this is the case to have charged the driver.

No doubt the facts will become clear in time.

There but for the Grace of God go all of us who travel on motorways.

Dangerous places.

[grumbledoak]

Steffan said:

Something strikes me as odd in the speed of the charge against the bus driver and the damage to the rear of the bus.

Possibly something to do with this bit:

Article said:

"At 6:12am, a 999 call was made by a concerned member of the public about a coach having broken down on lane one of the M5 south."
...
"However, unfortunately at 6:24 hours a further call was received to say that a large goods vehicle had collided into the rear of the coach."

[mrmr96]

Steffan said:

I do wonder how the Bus driver can have been driving dangerously from the rear.

Heavy fog but no lights on.

[Steffan]

mrmr96 said:

Steffan said:

I do wonder how the Bus driver can have been driving dangerously from the rear.

Heavy fog but no lights on.

Might be Careless Driving. But Dangerous?

It is not an offence to drive with lights off in fog in Daylight so far as I am aware. Maybe it is.

But dangerous Driving? More to this IMO.

[Deva Link]

mrmr96 said:

Heavy fog but no lights on.

I would guess the driver ought to have taken the passengers off the bus to a place of safety, or perhaps there's some suspicion that he should have anticipated the breakdown and not stopped in a live lane.

It's another one where I do wonder why the motorway had to be shut for 9 hours though. Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation, but the basic facts of the crash are surely pretty clear?

[WhoseGeneration]

Steffan said:

There but for the Grace of God go all of us who travel on motorways.

Dangerous places.

There was I thinking that motorways were the safest roads in the UK.

[mrmr96]

Steffan said:

mrmr96 said:

Steffan said:

I do wonder how the Bus driver can have been driving dangerously from the rear.

Heavy fog but no lights on.

Might be Careless Driving. But Dangerous?

It is not an offence to drive with lights off in fog in Daylight so far as I am aware. Maybe it is.

But dangerous Driving? More to this IMO.

Forgetting to take your packed lunch to work is careless.

Leaving a bus parked in lane 1 of a live motorway in heavy fog, reportedly with no lights on, such that a lorry ran into it and a person died is definitely dangerous.

[Steffan]

Deva Link said:

mrmr96 said:

Heavy fog but no lights on.

I would guess the driver ought to have taken the passengers off the bus to a place of safety, or perhaps there's some suspicion that he should have anticipated the breakdown and not stopped in a live lane.

It's another one where I do wonder why the motorway had to be shut for 9 hours though. Perhaps there is a reasonable explanation, but the basic facts of the crash are surely pretty clear?

I agree the passengers should have been moved to safety.

But getting 30+ Passengers to safety on a hard shoulder is no mean achievement on the side of a motorway with the bus apparently stuck in lane One.

I cannot see that this could possibly be construed as Dangerous driving.

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

I am desperately sorry for the dead and injured passengers. Who were completely innocent whatever the circumstances of the accident.

But I think there must be more to the crash build up than we have heard

[mrmr96]

Steffan said:

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

Depending what went wrong with the bus it might not have stopped instantly, therefore a careful and competent driver would have steered the coasting bus onto the hard shoulder and out of the live lane.

Can't you see that stopping in lane 1 in fog with no lights is dangerous? What do you think would happen if I decided to go and park my car in lane 1 like that?

I acknowledge that there may be circumstances where it might NOT be dangerous driving (e.g. if the fault with the bus meant that it couldn't be steered and stopped immediately and all the electronics also failed.)

However you must acknowledge that there are also circumstances where it WOULD be dangerous driving.

[Steffan]

mrmr96 said:

Steffan said:

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

Depending what went wrong with the bus it might not have stopped instantly, therefore a careful and competent driver would have steered the coasting bus onto the hard shoulder and out of the live lane.

Can't you see that stopping in lane 1 in fog with no lights is dangerous? What do you think would happen if I decided to go and park my car in lane 1 like that?

I acknowledge that there may be circumstances where it might NOT be dangerous driving (e.g. if the fault with the bus meant that it couldn't be steered and stopped immediately and all the electronics also failed.)

However you must acknowledge that there are also circumstances where it WOULD be dangerous driving.

As I understand it Dangerous driving requires a reckless or deliberately dangerous act. The penalties are far more severe the driving without due care or Careless driving.

I accept that stopping in lane One and not having lights on was most unwise.

If the driver had control over either at the time of the accident.

But deliberately dangerous? I find that a difficult proposition.

[davepoth]

Steffan said:

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

My understanding of the location of the vehicle is that it was stopped in L1 on a section of motorway with no hard shoulder. I think this is the spot:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.419036,-2.022278&a...

As you can see, the hard shoulder stops for no more than 100 yards. If the coach suddenly lost power at 50mph the driver should have been able to either stop before or after the bridge, but didn't do so. The coach was then left in Lane 1 with no lights showing in fog. I can't find the precedent, but I've certainly seen cases where vehicles left in a dangerous position that have caused death have been shown to be Death by Dangerous Driving.

[mrmr96]

Steffan said:

mrmr96 said:

Steffan said:

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

Depending what went wrong with the bus it might not have stopped instantly, therefore a careful and competent driver would have steered the coasting bus onto the hard shoulder and out of the live lane.

Can't you see that stopping in lane 1 in fog with no lights is dangerous? What do you think would happen if I decided to go and park my car in lane 1 like that?

I acknowledge that there may be circumstances where it might NOT be dangerous driving (e.g. if the fault with the bus meant that it couldn't be steered and stopped immediately and all the electronics also failed.)

However you must acknowledge that there are also circumstances where it WOULD be dangerous driving.

As I understand it Dangerous driving requires a reckless or deliberately dangerous act. The penalties are far more severe the driving without due care or Careless driving.

I accept that stopping in lane One and not having lights on was most unwise.

If the driver had control over either at the time of the accident.

But deliberately dangerous? I find that a difficult proposition.

Your understanding I've put in bold is incorrect.

Doesn't need to be "deliberately dangerous" to be "dangerous driving". The CPS has a fact sheet about the differences between dangerous and careless:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...

You'll note that in the opening paragraph of each section is a definition, and neither mentions intent. The definition of dangerous driving is:

"A person drives dangerously when:
> the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
> it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous."

I don't have all the info on the case of this bus, BUT you must be able to see that it is possible that the circumstances could fit this definition. (It is also possible that they don't, but my point is that it's not impossible that they could.)

[Steffan]

davepoth said:

Steffan said:

My concern in this is that the lorry ran into the back of the bus. That was apparent as we drove past later. How can that be dangerous driving by the Bus driver.

My understanding of the location of the vehicle is that it was stopped in L1 on a section of motorway with no hard shoulder. I think this is the spot:

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.419036,-2.022278&a...

As you can see, the hard shoulder stops for no more than 100 yards. If the coach suddenly lost power at 50mph the driver should have been able to either stop before or after the bridge, but didn't do so. The coach was then left in Lane 1 with no lights showing in fog. I can't find the precedent, but I've certainly seen cases where vehicles left in a dangerous position that have caused death have been shown to be Death by Dangerous Driving.

That is interesting. My argument is that it was due to a mechanical failure in the vehicle. Not all drivers react well to mechanical failures.

In itself I cannot see that as DD.

Since it was daytime the question of lights is much less relevant IMO. Many drivers fail to use light in fog. Stupid yes. Madness possibly. An act of DD?

Again I cannot see that as DD. In itself.

I think there must be more to this.

If there is not then I think the DD charges are at best suspect.

I would be most interested to see if any cases of DD for driving without lights in daylight exist.

[davepoth]

mrmr96 said:

Your understanding I've put in bold is incorrect.

Doesn't need to be "deliberately dangerous" to be "dangerous driving". The CPS has a fact sheet about the differences between dangerous and careless:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/fact_sheets/dangerous_d...

You'll note that in the opening paragraph of each section is a definition, and neither mentions intent. The definition of dangerous driving is:

"A person drives dangerously when:
> the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
> it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous."

I don't have all the info on the case of this bus, BUT you must be able to see that it is possible that the circumstances could fit this definition. (It is also possible that they don't, but my point is that it's not impossible that they could.)

Indeed, it's not clear if there is any Mens Rea for Dangerous Driving; however the absoluteness of the offence has yet to face a meaningful test in court. Dangerous Driving was brought in to replace Reckless Driving as it was problematic to prove the state of mind of a driver.