UK transport infrastructure
Discussion
I've just come back from a week in Shanghai, and the contrast between their rail network and ours was striking.
Getting from my hotel to the airport in Shanghai meant a short ride on their modern, clean and cheap (approx 50p) Metro out to the outskirts of Shanghai where I used the Maglev for the 20 mile trip to Pudong airport - at 431 km/hr (268mph) this part of the journey took just over 7 minutes. The entire trip from hotel to airport took less than 40 minutes door to door. Getting home from Heathrow involved a hack across London on the Picadilly and Central Lines (about 80 minutes) and then the joys of a rail replacement service meant it took 2 hours to cover 60 miles from Liverpool Street station to home, 30mph average speed. The trains were filthy, crowded, slow and rattly.
The Shanghai Maglev cost USD1.33 billion according to Wiki, wouldn't the £24 billion that we are spending on 2 weeks of sport called the Olympics have been better spent on improving our transport infrastructure?
On the other hand, the roads in China were very poor (even compared to the UK), there were tolls everywhere, and if they have a Highway Code then it is universally ignored!
Getting from my hotel to the airport in Shanghai meant a short ride on their modern, clean and cheap (approx 50p) Metro out to the outskirts of Shanghai where I used the Maglev for the 20 mile trip to Pudong airport - at 431 km/hr (268mph) this part of the journey took just over 7 minutes. The entire trip from hotel to airport took less than 40 minutes door to door. Getting home from Heathrow involved a hack across London on the Picadilly and Central Lines (about 80 minutes) and then the joys of a rail replacement service meant it took 2 hours to cover 60 miles from Liverpool Street station to home, 30mph average speed. The trains were filthy, crowded, slow and rattly.
The Shanghai Maglev cost USD1.33 billion according to Wiki, wouldn't the £24 billion that we are spending on 2 weeks of sport called the Olympics have been better spent on improving our transport infrastructure?
On the other hand, the roads in China were very poor (even compared to the UK), there were tolls everywhere, and if they have a Highway Code then it is universally ignored!
RYH64E said:
The Shanghai Maglev cost USD1.33 billion according to Wiki, wouldn't the £24 billion that we are spending on 2 weeks of sport called the Olympics have been better spent on improving our transport infrastructure?
A significant part of that £24 billion estimate is being spent on transport improvements but mainly in London (like pretty much all transport spending).ninja-lewis said:
A significant part of that £24 billion estimate is being spent on transport improvements but mainly in London (like pretty much all transport spending).
Having just travelled through London, I can't say that I noticed any improvements. Transport in and around London is a disgrace, it looks like what it is - a relic of the Victorian age.davepoth said:
I take it you didn't go up to Stratford? It's lovely up there now. 
Went from Liverpool Street to Stratford, on to Billericay (on the oldest, nastiest train I have seen in a while), got a rail replacement bus up to Witham, then another train on to East Anglia. Stratford is, and always will be, a s
t hole (that's from an East London boy born about 1 mile from Stratford). The only difference is that now Stratford is a st hole with a new shopping centre and several white elephants, or stadiums as they are known in official circles, and some sculptures.(I didn't miss your
, just ranting).
Major work taking place now at Reading and Birmingham New St,massive electrification taking place and planned in the future,new trains running on the Birmingham Dorridge line,new electric trains ordered for TPE and London Midland and thats just the stuff I can remember. Engineering work is a pain but when are we supposed to do it,at least when NR does work you can see it taking place unlike some roadworks which seem to be dormant for days!
We don't have a joined up transport infrastructure in this country because for many years those in power, or those who sat behind those in power, didn't want one.
Now we have the "little green men" to contend with as well.
Doesn't anybody else think it strange that the GWR main line out of Paddington runs within a mile of Heathrow, but there was no rail link from it into the airport until the late 1990s? It was because the road lobby didn't want one - they could just about put up with the Piccadilly line extension to LHR in 1977 because it didn't go very fast and wasn't a serious competitor. Chuck that little morsel at the pro-rail lobby and make sure that nothing else gets done for 20 years
Did you know that trains were running from West London (GWR line) to the City in the 19th century? Did you know that they were abolished as "unnecessary" before the war? Did you know that "Crossrail" (or a version of it) was first proposed in 1948? Yes 1948, that was no typo. Don't you, like me, just wonder why such ideas take such a long time to get to fruition? There is an old saying "Where there's a will there's a way." If there's no "will" about the place, well, draw your own conclusions .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail
Here's another old saying for you - "the old that is strong does not wither." The travelling public often confuse "new" for "good" when there are many examples in history of things being replaced by other things that were an inferior product (and not just railways - this is a motoring forum - anybody else remember Michelin X tyres? They never bloody wore out and the side walls went first, but that was no good for company profits so they were replaced with an "improved" version that did wear out)
Whilst ranting away here with Heathrow specifically in mind, we have an interesting situation on the GWR main line at present. Some time ago, some berk decided that it would be a jolly good idea to modernise Hayes & Harlington station. They were knocking the place around for months to "improve the customer experience" Oh yes? So now you have the opportunity to stand around on a flash modern-looking station whilst waiting for your 3-car train to come in jammed to the gunwhales already with standing passengers. But never mind, if you simply can't squeeze yourself into this heaving throng of humanity because there is simply no more room, you can console yourself with the reassurance that you've got a modern station to stand on whilst you wait for the next one. Or the next one. Or the one after that.
I don't know about you, but if the choice was waiting for a train on a station still smelling of Brunel's cigar smoke, then getting on a fast and reliable service, or standing on a modern station and being given a crap train service, I'd go for the first option every time.
And trains rattle. That's what trains do. Something to do with metal wheels and metal rails and points. I don't mind trains rattling (old ones or new ones, it makes no odds to me) as long as they get me where I want to go quickly and efficiently. If they do that, they can rattle all they like - I'm easy
As a fairly frequent user of Heathrow I have noticed that the number of times inbound flights are "stacked" has increased substantially over the years. It is not only clear that something needs to be done now, it should have been done 10 or more years ago. So what are we doing about it? In truth, nothing. We have the Tories in a bit of a quandary at the moment because they were spouting "no new runway at Heathrow" when they were in opposition and, as I write this, are starting to wonder how thay can do a U-turn on this one and get away with it (because the next election result is far, far more important than solving a transport problem, dear boy, and there are marginals in West London). Then you have His Borisness spouting on about an imaginary island half way to France that will be of no bloody use to anybody who lives north, west or south of the M25. And whatever happens and whatever is finally proposed, we then have the planning and consultation process to go through. Then someone will "find" some otter turds in a ditch and the whole thing goes off on another delaying tangent.
And in the meantime, pissed off air travellers enjoying looking at the panoramic beauty of Watford and Rickmansworth from 15,000 feet - again and again and again and again - will be resolving to use their local airport to fly to CDG or Schipol or Frankfurt next time and take their long haul journey from there.
Don't expect any action to relieve LHR congestion in the near future. If you have grandchildren who haven't left school yet, tell 'em the problems will all be sorted out. By the time they retire. Perhaps
I could go on all day on this but I've ranted enough. Over to somebody else to tell me what a misguided berk I am for holding these views
Now we have the "little green men" to contend with as well.
Doesn't anybody else think it strange that the GWR main line out of Paddington runs within a mile of Heathrow, but there was no rail link from it into the airport until the late 1990s? It was because the road lobby didn't want one - they could just about put up with the Piccadilly line extension to LHR in 1977 because it didn't go very fast and wasn't a serious competitor. Chuck that little morsel at the pro-rail lobby and make sure that nothing else gets done for 20 years
Did you know that trains were running from West London (GWR line) to the City in the 19th century? Did you know that they were abolished as "unnecessary" before the war? Did you know that "Crossrail" (or a version of it) was first proposed in 1948? Yes 1948, that was no typo. Don't you, like me, just wonder why such ideas take such a long time to get to fruition? There is an old saying "Where there's a will there's a way." If there's no "will" about the place, well, draw your own conclusions .....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossrail
Here's another old saying for you - "the old that is strong does not wither." The travelling public often confuse "new" for "good" when there are many examples in history of things being replaced by other things that were an inferior product (and not just railways - this is a motoring forum - anybody else remember Michelin X tyres? They never bloody wore out and the side walls went first, but that was no good for company profits so they were replaced with an "improved" version that did wear out)
Whilst ranting away here with Heathrow specifically in mind, we have an interesting situation on the GWR main line at present. Some time ago, some berk decided that it would be a jolly good idea to modernise Hayes & Harlington station. They were knocking the place around for months to "improve the customer experience" Oh yes? So now you have the opportunity to stand around on a flash modern-looking station whilst waiting for your 3-car train to come in jammed to the gunwhales already with standing passengers. But never mind, if you simply can't squeeze yourself into this heaving throng of humanity because there is simply no more room, you can console yourself with the reassurance that you've got a modern station to stand on whilst you wait for the next one. Or the next one. Or the one after that.
I don't know about you, but if the choice was waiting for a train on a station still smelling of Brunel's cigar smoke, then getting on a fast and reliable service, or standing on a modern station and being given a crap train service, I'd go for the first option every time.
And trains rattle. That's what trains do. Something to do with metal wheels and metal rails and points. I don't mind trains rattling (old ones or new ones, it makes no odds to me) as long as they get me where I want to go quickly and efficiently. If they do that, they can rattle all they like - I'm easy
As a fairly frequent user of Heathrow I have noticed that the number of times inbound flights are "stacked" has increased substantially over the years. It is not only clear that something needs to be done now, it should have been done 10 or more years ago. So what are we doing about it? In truth, nothing. We have the Tories in a bit of a quandary at the moment because they were spouting "no new runway at Heathrow" when they were in opposition and, as I write this, are starting to wonder how thay can do a U-turn on this one and get away with it (because the next election result is far, far more important than solving a transport problem, dear boy, and there are marginals in West London). Then you have His Borisness spouting on about an imaginary island half way to France that will be of no bloody use to anybody who lives north, west or south of the M25. And whatever happens and whatever is finally proposed, we then have the planning and consultation process to go through. Then someone will "find" some otter turds in a ditch and the whole thing goes off on another delaying tangent.
And in the meantime, pissed off air travellers enjoying looking at the panoramic beauty of Watford and Rickmansworth from 15,000 feet - again and again and again and again - will be resolving to use their local airport to fly to CDG or Schipol or Frankfurt next time and take their long haul journey from there.
Don't expect any action to relieve LHR congestion in the near future. If you have grandchildren who haven't left school yet, tell 'em the problems will all be sorted out. By the time they retire. Perhaps
I could go on all day on this but I've ranted enough. Over to somebody else to tell me what a misguided berk I am for holding these views
RYH64E said:
ninja-lewis said:
A significant part of that £24 billion estimate is being spent on transport improvements but mainly in London (like pretty much all transport spending).
Having just travelled through London, I can't say that I noticed any improvements. Transport in and around London is a disgrace, it looks like what it is - a relic of the Victorian age.rs1952 said:
And trains rattle. That's what trains do. Something to do with metal wheels and metal rails and points. I don't mind trains rattling (old ones or new ones, it makes no odds to me) as long as they get me where I want to go quickly and efficiently. If they do that, they can rattle all they like - I'm easy
The Maglev doesn't rattle, not even at 268 mph In Shanghai, 20 miles from Pudong airport to the outskirts of the city takes 7 minutes (in comfort, without rattles). In London, 20 miles from Heathrow to Liverpool Street takes well over an hour.
Apparently, the first working Maglev model was developed in London in the 1940s, so much for progress.
RYH64E said:
rs1952 said:
And trains rattle. That's what trains do. Something to do with metal wheels and metal rails and points. I don't mind trains rattling (old ones or new ones, it makes no odds to me) as long as they get me where I want to go quickly and efficiently. If they do that, they can rattle all they like - I'm easy
The Maglev doesn't rattle, not even at 268 mph In Shanghai, 20 miles from Pudong airport to the outskirts of the city takes 7 minutes (in comfort, without rattles). In London, 20 miles from Heathrow to Liverpool Street takes well over an hour.
Apparently, the first working Maglev model was developed in London in the 1940s, so much for progress.
= Magnetic levitation.
No rails
However, you've just reminded me of some more "progress" to rant on about (especially relevant since I'm off on a tobacco run to Belgium tomorrow)
By far the best and quickest way of crossing the Channel used to be by hovercraft. You drove your car onto the thing, it took off, landed at the other end and you drove off. Its Achilees heel was that in anything more than a force 5 it was "off the road"
So, instead of trying to improve hovercraft design to overcome this, Hoverspeed introduced their catamaran service which was slower both in terms of travelling time and loading/ unloading. Hoverspeed is of course no more. Interesting .....
Engineer1 said:
Because a hell of a lot of it is Victorian, and it is so heavily used that it would be damned difficult to upgrade it now, which seems to be the story for most of the UK's infrastructure.
This is the nub of the problem imo, how do you upgrade something that is in constant use? It's an issue that is going to have to be addressed sooner or later because there's only so much patching up that can be done on weekends. There must come a point when a major upgrade is needed, can that be done whilst maintaining the existing service?
RYH64E said:
Engineer1 said:
Because a hell of a lot of it is Victorian, and it is so heavily used that it would be damned difficult to upgrade it now, which seems to be the story for most of the UK's infrastructure.
This is the nub of the problem imo, how do you upgrade something that is in constant use? It's an issue that is going to have to be addressed sooner or later because there's only so much patching up that can be done on weekends. There must come a point when a major upgrade is needed, can that be done whilst maintaining the existing service?
Can't really compare China to the UK really.
China decides to build a railway from point A to B and to hell with who it upsets or if it endangers a crested newt colony and builds it to a questionable quality.
UK spends years and millions of pounds on planning and feasability studies and then the end result is often a dogs mess trying to placate everyone.
Massive improvements are being made, it's just they have to be done around a working railway giving them an odd weekend or overnight. They would love to do a block shutdown and get it over and done with but too many people would go mental and some MPs would see their moment of glory and openly condemn it even though it is cheaper and more efficient to do it this way.
People are very quick to complain when an old piece of signalling or track fails but try telling them there will be no service for a week while it's being replaced and watch them go red with rage. You just can't win unfortunately.
China decides to build a railway from point A to B and to hell with who it upsets or if it endangers a crested newt colony and builds it to a questionable quality.
UK spends years and millions of pounds on planning and feasability studies and then the end result is often a dogs mess trying to placate everyone.
Massive improvements are being made, it's just they have to be done around a working railway giving them an odd weekend or overnight. They would love to do a block shutdown and get it over and done with but too many people would go mental and some MPs would see their moment of glory and openly condemn it even though it is cheaper and more efficient to do it this way.
People are very quick to complain when an old piece of signalling or track fails but try telling them there will be no service for a week while it's being replaced and watch them go red with rage. You just can't win unfortunately.
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