Can you reverse an insurance decision?
Discussion
If someone with the relevant knowledge or experience could spend a second to read this, and give an opinion, it would be very gratefully received. I will keep it as brief as possible, I can give the full version if needed, or expand on any details.
Basically,
I was involved in a very expensive 3 vehicle accident, which was 100% the fault of another driver, and quite clearly his fault, the police were at the scene (I called them). 3 months later, I received notice from the Police that they were considering prosecuting ME for driving without due care etc. unless I paid to go on a driving course - which would mean accepting responsibility for the accident. I told the police to kindly p**s off. A month after this, I receive summons, I plead not guilty by post. I check with my insurance, as they have the relevant statements to back me up with my case. The insurance then tell me they automatically settled against me a couple of weeks previously, without asking / informing me, as they had contacted the police for evidence, and learned I was being prosecuted. Automatic - because of my PROSECUTIOIN, NOT CONVICTION, shocking - Nor*ich Un*on, btw. So, one year and three adjournments later, I go to court - with a briefcase full of evidence, a witness and a solicitor (Nor*ich Un*on’s "legal" cover only covers civil cases). The prosecution's witness - the git who caused the crash, had already missed one appearance (my third adjournment), and was now refusing to go to court. This, IMHO was due to the fact that his two police statements and his insurance statements were ALL different, and the first police statement didn't actually describe a situation which could be possible without defying all the known laws of physics, basically a very hasty lie. The prosecution took one look at my evidence pre-trial and dropped the case instantly, so I got case dismissed rather than not guilty. My case was built on the fact that it was the aforementioned gits fault - and he claimed on my policy.
Now, I am well over £1000 out of pocket already in legal fees, travelling expenses (a very un-local court) and lost time from work for me and my witness. I know I won't get this back. But I still have the higher insurance premiums, which is a lot (latest car - 380bhp/ton).
Can an insurance decision be reversed, what are my chances, and what approach should I take? If you can't get it reversed can I claim my increased premium cost from my ex - insurace company?
Sorry to waffle on. Any help would be appreciated.
edited to remove pointless rant about police incompetence
>>> Edited by feet on Tuesday 20th July 00:26
Basically,
I was involved in a very expensive 3 vehicle accident, which was 100% the fault of another driver, and quite clearly his fault, the police were at the scene (I called them). 3 months later, I received notice from the Police that they were considering prosecuting ME for driving without due care etc. unless I paid to go on a driving course - which would mean accepting responsibility for the accident. I told the police to kindly p**s off. A month after this, I receive summons, I plead not guilty by post. I check with my insurance, as they have the relevant statements to back me up with my case. The insurance then tell me they automatically settled against me a couple of weeks previously, without asking / informing me, as they had contacted the police for evidence, and learned I was being prosecuted. Automatic - because of my PROSECUTIOIN, NOT CONVICTION, shocking - Nor*ich Un*on, btw. So, one year and three adjournments later, I go to court - with a briefcase full of evidence, a witness and a solicitor (Nor*ich Un*on’s "legal" cover only covers civil cases). The prosecution's witness - the git who caused the crash, had already missed one appearance (my third adjournment), and was now refusing to go to court. This, IMHO was due to the fact that his two police statements and his insurance statements were ALL different, and the first police statement didn't actually describe a situation which could be possible without defying all the known laws of physics, basically a very hasty lie. The prosecution took one look at my evidence pre-trial and dropped the case instantly, so I got case dismissed rather than not guilty. My case was built on the fact that it was the aforementioned gits fault - and he claimed on my policy.
Now, I am well over £1000 out of pocket already in legal fees, travelling expenses (a very un-local court) and lost time from work for me and my witness. I know I won't get this back. But I still have the higher insurance premiums, which is a lot (latest car - 380bhp/ton).
Can an insurance decision be reversed, what are my chances, and what approach should I take? If you can't get it reversed can I claim my increased premium cost from my ex - insurace company?
Sorry to waffle on. Any help would be appreciated.
edited to remove pointless rant about police incompetence
>>> Edited by feet on Tuesday 20th July 00:26
Sounds like you've had a bit of a "rough do" Feet O.M. This deserves to be at the head of our posts I think as it could involve any of us one day!
Hope someone can help you, I can only suggest the insuance companies Omnbudsman or the I..B..A? I thi...nk it is? the insurance brokers association. BUT! I understand that THEY always come down on the side of their members anyway. Do insurance companys come under the FSA umberella? not sure. Beyond that maybe it's a Private prosection matter! More Expense.
Come on!! someone out there must know the "in & outs" of this! Can anyone advise "Feet?"
Best of luck though: 8Pack.
Hope someone can help you, I can only suggest the insuance companies Omnbudsman or the I..B..A? I thi...nk it is? the insurance brokers association. BUT! I understand that THEY always come down on the side of their members anyway. Do insurance companys come under the FSA umberella? not sure. Beyond that maybe it's a Private prosection matter! More Expense.
Come on!! someone out there must know the "in & outs" of this! Can anyone advise "Feet?"
Best of luck though: 8Pack.
How much good this will do, I have no idea. IANAL, but herewith my suggestions:
Write to the insurer stating that the case was to be heard at such-and-such a court, on such-and-such a date (quote case nunber) but that when they saw the evidence the CPS dropped the case and it was formally dismissed. Indicate as clearly and forcibly as possible that the third-party's evidence was contradictory and that this was a contributing factor in the CPS dropping the case. [I assume that this is the third-party with whom your insurer settled ... maybe suggesting the possibility of them having brought a fraudulent claim.] You might also consider speaking to the (originally involved) police (force) on this point.
Point out to your insurer that they clearly "jumped the gun" in settling with the third-party against you and in so doing did not allow either "natural" or criminal justice to prevail.
Ask that they reinstate your NCB (back-dated to date of accident) and refund any additional premium you have paid them. If you are now insured with another company, ask that your previous insurer write to your new one setting out their agreement to the back-dated reinstatement of your NCB.
Set out your case to your old insurer that (at least some of) the costs you have incurred are attributable to their having settled against you before the court case was decided, and ask that they consider making a generous contribution to those costs.
There is - IMHO - no point in writing to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) as they are the insurer's trade association and naturally have their members' interests at heart. You can try the Financial Ombudsman (replaced the Insurance Obudsman). His website is: www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/.
Certainly speak to either a lawyer or to your local CAB.
You say that your (old) insurance policy covers your costs in civil cases. There might be an interesting twist of fate here, for if you were to sue the insurer they would have to pay you to sue them! (Joke! One suspects that their advice would be that you had no chance of succeeding
.)
Whatever, good luck! As already said by another, a salutary lesson for us all.
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Tuesday 20th July 09:37
Write to the insurer stating that the case was to be heard at such-and-such a court, on such-and-such a date (quote case nunber) but that when they saw the evidence the CPS dropped the case and it was formally dismissed. Indicate as clearly and forcibly as possible that the third-party's evidence was contradictory and that this was a contributing factor in the CPS dropping the case. [I assume that this is the third-party with whom your insurer settled ... maybe suggesting the possibility of them having brought a fraudulent claim.] You might also consider speaking to the (originally involved) police (force) on this point.
Point out to your insurer that they clearly "jumped the gun" in settling with the third-party against you and in so doing did not allow either "natural" or criminal justice to prevail.
Ask that they reinstate your NCB (back-dated to date of accident) and refund any additional premium you have paid them. If you are now insured with another company, ask that your previous insurer write to your new one setting out their agreement to the back-dated reinstatement of your NCB.
Set out your case to your old insurer that (at least some of) the costs you have incurred are attributable to their having settled against you before the court case was decided, and ask that they consider making a generous contribution to those costs.
There is - IMHO - no point in writing to the Association of British Insurers (ABI) as they are the insurer's trade association and naturally have their members' interests at heart. You can try the Financial Ombudsman (replaced the Insurance Obudsman). His website is: www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/.
Certainly speak to either a lawyer or to your local CAB.
You say that your (old) insurance policy covers your costs in civil cases. There might be an interesting twist of fate here, for if you were to sue the insurer they would have to pay you to sue them! (Joke! One suspects that their advice would be that you had no chance of succeeding
.) Whatever, good luck! As already said by another, a salutary lesson for us all.
Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Tuesday 20th July 09:37
Try taking the other guy to the small claims court to get your excess and NCB extra back (this should come under the small claims limit). With his record of non-appearance he probably would not attend (and probably not pay either) but it would be a stick to beat the ins co with.
There again they will brobably say that they won't refund you anything because you have got your money through the court.
I'll get my coat!
There again they will brobably say that they won't refund you anything because you have got your money through the court.
I'll get my coat!
A point for future reference -
If you are 100% the victim it is worth writing to your insurance company before any claims are settled (ie.e straight away, with the claims form) telling them the facts and instructing them that they are not to accept any liability for the accident. I did this when a girl drove into my car a few years ago. She then blamed me (after admitting the error on the scene) and tried to claim from my insurance.
My insurance company contacted me and told me what was happening and told them to insist on full recovery from the other insurer. They succeeded. I lost nothing.
If you are 100% the victim it is worth writing to your insurance company before any claims are settled (ie.e straight away, with the claims form) telling them the facts and instructing them that they are not to accept any liability for the accident. I did this when a girl drove into my car a few years ago. She then blamed me (after admitting the error on the scene) and tried to claim from my insurance.
My insurance company contacted me and told me what was happening and told them to insist on full recovery from the other insurer. They succeeded. I lost nothing.
I agree with Rus Wood. I'd take out a civil action against the other driver for ALL your out of pocket expenses, ESPECIALLY your excess.
Indeed, in theory you could even go after them for the entire original claim and pay it back to your insurance company! A bit extreme but worth considering...
What does your solicitor say?
Indeed, in theory you could even go after them for the entire original claim and pay it back to your insurance company! A bit extreme but worth considering...
What does your solicitor say?
Good advice from streaky - you need to write to Norwich Onion first and go through their complaints procedure - FOB won't touch it unless you've tried to resolve the matter with the company first. Tell NU if you don't receive a reply within 28 days you'll go to FOB anyway (which is perfectly reasonable).
It sounds to me as if NU have been negligent - if they'd bothered to look through the statements properly they'd've seen they had a strong case and should have defended it.
Good luck and keep us posted (no pun intended).
PS kevinday - you can by all means register your wishes with an insurer but you have no right whatsoever to insist they don't pay out - every policy has a clause in it which says something along the lines of 'if you want us to indemnify you then fine, but you must abide by our decision' - posh word is subrogation - means the insurer takes over the case from you and deals as they see fit. Not always popular and they're not always right - but you signed the contract so deal with it :>
It sounds to me as if NU have been negligent - if they'd bothered to look through the statements properly they'd've seen they had a strong case and should have defended it.
Good luck and keep us posted (no pun intended).
PS kevinday - you can by all means register your wishes with an insurer but you have no right whatsoever to insist they don't pay out - every policy has a clause in it which says something along the lines of 'if you want us to indemnify you then fine, but you must abide by our decision' - posh word is subrogation - means the insurer takes over the case from you and deals as they see fit. Not always popular and they're not always right - but you signed the contract so deal with it :>
rus wood said:
Try taking the other guy to the small claims court to get your excess and NCB extra back (this should come under the small claims limit). With his record of non-appearance he probably would not attend (and probably not pay either) but it would be a stick to beat the ins co with.
There again they will brobably say that they won't refund you anything because you have got your money through the court.
I'll get my coat!
This will cost peanuts, and having been to small claims recently is a fun day out. I was lucky that my legal protection provided a solicitor, but I am reasonably sure that I would have won anyway.
The Judge takes it all on balance and reads through the evidence. I am pretty sure that I won because.
1) I provided all the photo's, all the maps and all the diagrams. (I even lent the judge my calculator !)
2) My statement was 13 pages long and his was one page.
3) He used the words maliciously and vindictively to discribe my driving, which upset the judge, who said that I did not look the type.
4) After all the points of disagreement were stripped away and the only points of agreement were looked at, he overtook in a place where most would not. (He cut me up as he swerved in front, but said I rammed him in rage)
5) The fact that I had overtaken him previously in a shitty 1.4 Astra, made the judge think that the X Type R driver had got 'THE needle'.
I am not aware of a situation where an insurance company can make an admission that you were at fault without your consent. They should have contacted you to advise you of their decision and you should have been given an opportunity to reject their decision. It might have mean going to court to decide who was at fault and the insurance company(s) generally try to avoid this because of the increase in costs to them.
Do you have legal expenses insurance with your car insurance or any legal advice services thrown in with house insurances? You need to find out what your options are, what the insurance company's view is and then make a formal complaint (the complaint procedure should be in with the policy documents - often posted on their website). Once you have a reply from NU, if it is still unsatisfactory, you can take the complaint further and register it with the General Insurance Standards Council
Hopefully you have kept a record of all correspondance with the insurance company as you will need this (although the GISC can ask the insurance company to produce their records).
MC
Do you have legal expenses insurance with your car insurance or any legal advice services thrown in with house insurances? You need to find out what your options are, what the insurance company's view is and then make a formal complaint (the complaint procedure should be in with the policy documents - often posted on their website). Once you have a reply from NU, if it is still unsatisfactory, you can take the complaint further and register it with the General Insurance Standards Council
Hopefully you have kept a record of all correspondance with the insurance company as you will need this (although the GISC can ask the insurance company to produce their records).
MC
MajorClanger said:
I am not aware of a situation where an insurance company can make an admission that you were at fault without your consent. They should have contacted you to advise you of their decision and you should have been given an opportunity to reject their decision. It might have mean going to court to decide who was at fault and the insurance company(s) generally try to avoid this because of the increase in costs to them.
See my previous - you don't get a say. If you want the insurer to indemnify you, they take over the claim and run it as they see fit, which includes admitting/denying liability on your behalf. If you don't agree, you're more than welcome to deal with the claim yourself. Good luck and hope you win, cos if you lose, you could big time and be paying off the third mortgage for a loooooong time.
Thankyou everyone. I do have a trees worth of maps, statements, diagrams, photos and the repair reciepts - the other guy has three barely legibal, non-sensical, contradicting and impossible statements. So I think small claims might be worth a try.
I will complain to the insurance company first, and make a copy of all my accumulated evidence available to them, could be worth a shot.
I never did ask my solicitor about this, I just wanted to get out of court. Problem is, too much with solicitor and it starts to cost me money again - so I thought I would ask you guys first.
Yes, I feel very hard done by. I had proof at the time, and it took me a year of worry before anyone would take a proper look at it. I drive between 60,000 and 70,000 a year, for years - and never had a ticket / pull or so much as a scrape. I take my driving aggression out at weekends on airfields in a sideways Westfield. I have lost count of the number of accidents on the road which I have prevented by skillfully avoiding complete morons. The first time one of these oiks attacks me in a completely unavoidable way, I am treated like a nob by the police and my insurace company - and he gets a big personal injury claim (looked fine at the time).
Thanks again everyone. I hope none of you have to go through this kind of cr*p.
I will complain to the insurance company first, and make a copy of all my accumulated evidence available to them, could be worth a shot.
I never did ask my solicitor about this, I just wanted to get out of court. Problem is, too much with solicitor and it starts to cost me money again - so I thought I would ask you guys first.
Yes, I feel very hard done by. I had proof at the time, and it took me a year of worry before anyone would take a proper look at it. I drive between 60,000 and 70,000 a year, for years - and never had a ticket / pull or so much as a scrape. I take my driving aggression out at weekends on airfields in a sideways Westfield. I have lost count of the number of accidents on the road which I have prevented by skillfully avoiding complete morons. The first time one of these oiks attacks me in a completely unavoidable way, I am treated like a nob by the police and my insurace company - and he gets a big personal injury claim (looked fine at the time).
Thanks again everyone. I hope none of you have to go through this kind of cr*p.
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