Discussion
You know when you flick through the Mini Magazines there are hundreds of specialists and engineering firms that offer Engine Kits for self build?
Is there much between them quality wise?
They state everything is balanced etc so will the rods and pistons be exact for the block when they leave or would an element of decking still probably be neccesary?
I've never bought one you see but may be about to and wondered the groups thoughts on suppliers etc.
Is there much between them quality wise?
They state everything is balanced etc so will the rods and pistons be exact for the block when they leave or would an element of decking still probably be neccesary?
I've never bought one you see but may be about to and wondered the groups thoughts on suppliers etc.
plotloss said:
They state everything is balanced etc so will the rods and pistons be exact for the block when they leave or would an element of decking still probably be neccesary?
balancing, is equalising the masses of the elements to a particular tolerance (unless your in F1 I doubt they will be perfect!) i.e. the pistons weigh the same the conrods weigh the same.
But there are two types of balancing, static balancing and dynamic balancing, static balancing is the above, i.e. the elements are weighed (which is probably what they mean)
Dynamic balancing, is effectively balancing the whole lots together as it rotates, its is much better but is expensive. Basically it reduces the vibrations seen in an engine. Usually done for race engines which rev quite high.
There is no standard for the kits so it depends on the manufacturer, condition of your engine etc etc etc.
I'd get peoples opinions of their kits and if poss rolling road figures.
Over the years my experience of performance engine kits has been 'poor' to 'dreadful'.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally the standards are not good. This may be because potential buyers want kits 'down to a price' rather than 'up to a specification'. Se we all probably have only ourselves to blame.
I know it takes me at least 45 hours to build an engine for my rally cars, and that is with me putting the machining out to my local machine shop. I can't see a professional builder doing the work for less that about £30 per hour plus parts, so anything at less than about £2000 is going to be on the cheap side.
The question was asked about whether the blocks are correctly decked. This is critical, but to get the measurement for decking requires two complete assemblies of the short engine, so at the lowest price the answer is 'probably not', even though this is a most important item. The other very important items are accurate cam timing using offset keys (or vernier pulley) and combustion chamber volume to give the correct comp. ratio.
In all honesty it is probably not worth balancing an 'A-series' engine unless you intend using more than about 6250 rpm. You don't gain any power, just a smoother engine, and it is expensive to get done properly. There is no point in paying for balancing to be done 'on-the-cheap' and for it not to have been done correctly. I've heard of some disreputable engine builders who will grind bits off at random and claim to have balanced the engine, charging perhaps £300 for this. How would you ever know? (that's me being cynical!).
I do sometimes build engines for other people, but if I'm asked how little it could be done for I just decline. If you want an engine to last the answer is to get it done properly, or do it yourself with a bit of expert advice. It's not as difficult as it may seem.
I once bought a ready-ported head from one of the well known Mini specialist companies. For once I didn't do it myself as I was short of time and I thought they would be OK. It was for a race-spec 1071 cc Cooper 'S' with 649 cam, offset rockers, twin 1.5" SU's, steel flywheel, etc.. They had the full spec from me, but I checked the combustion chamber volumes before fitting and if I had not done so I would have ended up with a comp ratio of about 8.5 to 1 instead of the 11 to 1 specified. I rectified the problem myself and it was a great engine.
All you need to build an engine is a good tool kit, a torque wrench, some basic measuring equipment - dial gauge, vernier digital calipers, engine protractor and feeler gauges, plus a bit of determination.
You can always ask on here for advice or assistance if you are in doubt about anything.
I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally the standards are not good. This may be because potential buyers want kits 'down to a price' rather than 'up to a specification'. Se we all probably have only ourselves to blame.
I know it takes me at least 45 hours to build an engine for my rally cars, and that is with me putting the machining out to my local machine shop. I can't see a professional builder doing the work for less that about £30 per hour plus parts, so anything at less than about £2000 is going to be on the cheap side.
The question was asked about whether the blocks are correctly decked. This is critical, but to get the measurement for decking requires two complete assemblies of the short engine, so at the lowest price the answer is 'probably not', even though this is a most important item. The other very important items are accurate cam timing using offset keys (or vernier pulley) and combustion chamber volume to give the correct comp. ratio.
In all honesty it is probably not worth balancing an 'A-series' engine unless you intend using more than about 6250 rpm. You don't gain any power, just a smoother engine, and it is expensive to get done properly. There is no point in paying for balancing to be done 'on-the-cheap' and for it not to have been done correctly. I've heard of some disreputable engine builders who will grind bits off at random and claim to have balanced the engine, charging perhaps £300 for this. How would you ever know? (that's me being cynical!).
I do sometimes build engines for other people, but if I'm asked how little it could be done for I just decline. If you want an engine to last the answer is to get it done properly, or do it yourself with a bit of expert advice. It's not as difficult as it may seem.
I once bought a ready-ported head from one of the well known Mini specialist companies. For once I didn't do it myself as I was short of time and I thought they would be OK. It was for a race-spec 1071 cc Cooper 'S' with 649 cam, offset rockers, twin 1.5" SU's, steel flywheel, etc.. They had the full spec from me, but I checked the combustion chamber volumes before fitting and if I had not done so I would have ended up with a comp ratio of about 8.5 to 1 instead of the 11 to 1 specified. I rectified the problem myself and it was a great engine.
All you need to build an engine is a good tool kit, a torque wrench, some basic measuring equipment - dial gauge, vernier digital calipers, engine protractor and feeler gauges, plus a bit of determination.
You can always ask on here for advice or assistance if you are in doubt about anything.
Blimey, thats a bit of a shocker.
I am not going into this low cost, at all in fact, I have been through so many different permutations of power unit for this car I want to just now get on with it so would be willing to pay for the best out there (within reason of course).
I have to say I am suprised that the quality isnt all that good so I suppose this leaves me with two options.
Get the current 998 out and send it off to a local engineer with a spec sheet and then go from there or go to someone like Bill Richards whos reputation and quality seems to preceed him.
I am not going into this low cost, at all in fact, I have been through so many different permutations of power unit for this car I want to just now get on with it so would be willing to pay for the best out there (within reason of course).
I have to say I am suprised that the quality isnt all that good so I suppose this leaves me with two options.
Get the current 998 out and send it off to a local engineer with a spec sheet and then go from there or go to someone like Bill Richards whos reputation and quality seems to preceed him.
Having had a 1380 minisport pulled apart and rebuilt properly I know must engine kits aren’t great, Bill work is very good but expensive, plus he’ll want to meet you, talk it over and can be funny about who he builds for, I’m sure you’ll be ok but have seen him quote 1 year lead times for people he didn’t want to do the work for.
Maybe Peter can do you a nice deal?
Maybe Peter can do you a nice deal?
Yeah I meant to mail you about that Paul.
I read a bit of his website and a bit in a MiniWorld a few months back.
He (Bill) does seem very insistent on a number of points it has to be said.
Suppose the best way is to make whats starting to feel like a scary phone call!
Swiftune are on the list definately as they seem to know their onions.
I also meant to ask, are the 8 port heads worth the money?
I read a bit of his website and a bit in a MiniWorld a few months back.
He (Bill) does seem very insistent on a number of points it has to be said.
Suppose the best way is to make whats starting to feel like a scary phone call!
Swiftune are on the list definately as they seem to know their onions.
I also meant to ask, are the 8 port heads worth the money?
Slightly off topic, but I have put together a number of engines over the years not usually mini ones though. They have all worked well but probably not to their ultimate potential because I didn't have ALL the right measuring gear and had to make a few judgements.
I bought a 1690cc crossflow Ford engine from Scholar back in 1990. Scholar made the best Formula Ford engines at the time. That engine went like a dream, fast, smooth, pulled like a train with no irritating faults or hiccups. when I went to them in the first instance with a specification, they said "what are you using the car for?". I told them and they came back with "well you don't need vernier cam set up, once it set why would you want to change it" and why do you need a HC/HP oil pump, the standard one is fine". etc.
Moral: I suppose is that go to a reputable builder with what you want to do with the final product, trust them,(not always easy) and go with it. It might be cheaper than you think.
Now back to that old clubbie engine, pass me a bigger hammer....
I bought a 1690cc crossflow Ford engine from Scholar back in 1990. Scholar made the best Formula Ford engines at the time. That engine went like a dream, fast, smooth, pulled like a train with no irritating faults or hiccups. when I went to them in the first instance with a specification, they said "what are you using the car for?". I told them and they came back with "well you don't need vernier cam set up, once it set why would you want to change it" and why do you need a HC/HP oil pump, the standard one is fine". etc.
Moral: I suppose is that go to a reputable builder with what you want to do with the final product, trust them,(not always easy) and go with it. It might be cheaper than you think.
Now back to that old clubbie engine, pass me a bigger hammer....
I ended up buying a short engine kit from form mini sport after my oil pump packed up.
Got to say i didnt have any problems putting it together and the engine has always run like a dream.
On the rolling roads at mini speed the guy was impressed with my torque curve and over all power.
Hehe you gonna find me in the TVR section now as well as ive just paid a deposit to secure a S3C, fantastic!!!!
Got to say i didnt have any problems putting it together and the engine has always run like a dream.
On the rolling roads at mini speed the guy was impressed with my torque curve and over all power.
Hehe you gonna find me in the TVR section now as well as ive just paid a deposit to secure a S3C, fantastic!!!!
Plotloss,
I suppose it depends how far you want to go with your engine as to if you need to go for an 8 port, also budget as they aren’t exactly cheap, best thing you can do is speak to bill as he will tell you what you need and work around your budget, I’d knock a few hundred of you max price as they always go over, nothing against bill but sometimes he can get carried away.
Your welcome to drop me a line about it whenever.
Dave, it’s a slippery slope just like the Mini's
I suppose it depends how far you want to go with your engine as to if you need to go for an 8 port, also budget as they aren’t exactly cheap, best thing you can do is speak to bill as he will tell you what you need and work around your budget, I’d knock a few hundred of you max price as they always go over, nothing against bill but sometimes he can get carried away.
Your welcome to drop me a line about it whenever.
Dave, it’s a slippery slope just like the Mini's
Looking into this a little more last night I found that some of these kit suppliers fit the pistons to the rods before shipping.
If this is the case how are you supposed to get the best spread of variance across all the cylinders because presumably you want the shortest pin to crown height on the longest hole to end of rod rod.
Which leads me to believe that either they are not worth it over something built from scratch or they are all identical length within a very small tolerance.
Odd.
If this is the case how are you supposed to get the best spread of variance across all the cylinders because presumably you want the shortest pin to crown height on the longest hole to end of rod rod.
Which leads me to believe that either they are not worth it over something built from scratch or they are all identical length within a very small tolerance.
Odd.
You are certainly better off building the complete engine yourself rather than buying a self-assembly kit. After all, if you buy a kit all you are doing is paying for the out-sourcing of certain jobs you could do yourself.
Rob Walker at Chipping Norton is very good and I've used him to do machining for me. He also builds complete engines. His quality is excellent, his charges reasonable and he's a really nice guy as well. The only problem for me is that he's about 60 miles away and I have a local machine shop 3 miles rom my home and halfway to my office (C & F Motors, Lower Stondon, Beds.). So, for example, I can deliver a block one morning and collect the next evening. They are not what I would call specialist builders, but so long as I tell them exactly what I want done they get it right. For cylinder head machining, skimming, etc, Im use Cylinder Head Engineering of Shefford, Beds. Again they're about 3 miles from home and I know the father & son team who run it pretty well. They even ask me about the porting of Mini heads.
The first time you set out to build a complete engine can be a bit daunting. I got into engine building when I had a new Cortina GT in the '60's and a company called Supersport Engines in Acton charged me a small fortune to re-build my engine for rallying. When fitted it lacked power, had low oil pressure and didn't drive well. So, after taking it back to them twice, I decided that I couldn't do any worse, read a book about engine building, took the lump out and did the whole thing myself. The result was total satisfaction, including the extra satisfaction of having done it all myself. The pleasure of a self-built engine starting and running after the build never fails to satify.
If anyone is interested I could prepare a strip-down & build sequence and post it on here. It would be a bit long, though.
Anyone interested just let me know.
Peter
Rob Walker at Chipping Norton is very good and I've used him to do machining for me. He also builds complete engines. His quality is excellent, his charges reasonable and he's a really nice guy as well. The only problem for me is that he's about 60 miles away and I have a local machine shop 3 miles rom my home and halfway to my office (C & F Motors, Lower Stondon, Beds.). So, for example, I can deliver a block one morning and collect the next evening. They are not what I would call specialist builders, but so long as I tell them exactly what I want done they get it right. For cylinder head machining, skimming, etc, Im use Cylinder Head Engineering of Shefford, Beds. Again they're about 3 miles from home and I know the father & son team who run it pretty well. They even ask me about the porting of Mini heads.
The first time you set out to build a complete engine can be a bit daunting. I got into engine building when I had a new Cortina GT in the '60's and a company called Supersport Engines in Acton charged me a small fortune to re-build my engine for rallying. When fitted it lacked power, had low oil pressure and didn't drive well. So, after taking it back to them twice, I decided that I couldn't do any worse, read a book about engine building, took the lump out and did the whole thing myself. The result was total satisfaction, including the extra satisfaction of having done it all myself. The pleasure of a self-built engine starting and running after the build never fails to satify.
If anyone is interested I could prepare a strip-down & build sequence and post it on here. It would be a bit long, though.
Anyone interested just let me know.
Peter
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