The Mercedes front wing - What is stalling?
Discussion
Could somebody please explain to how the stalling of the front wing on the Mercedes F1 car works please.
I know there is a duct under the DRS flap and that channels air to the front of the car, but when the air gets to the front of the car I get confused.
My basic understanding of aerodynamics is a difference of speed across a wing creates lift when used in a plane. Stalling is a disrupting the air over the wing.
So, if Merc are pushing the air under the front wing, would this not drag the front of the car down, therefore making more downforce?
I know there is a duct under the DRS flap and that channels air to the front of the car, but when the air gets to the front of the car I get confused.
My basic understanding of aerodynamics is a difference of speed across a wing creates lift when used in a plane. Stalling is a disrupting the air over the wing.
So, if Merc are pushing the air under the front wing, would this not drag the front of the car down, therefore making more downforce?
You create downforce by creating low pressure on the underside of the wing, presumably by adding extra air to the underside the wing they are increasing the pressure under the wing, reducing the downforce.
I'm sure Scarbs will have covered it in this post:
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/mercedes-...
Hope that helps.
I'm sure Scarbs will have covered it in this post:
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/mercedes-...
Hope that helps.
Edited by MrKipling43 on Friday 30th March 10:34
Wings on a car are actually upside down - so the lift they generate pushes the car into the road.
An effective wing actually creates quite a lot of drag - so the desire to push a car down in the corners has to be balanced against the desire for less drag in the straights. By stalling the wing in the straights, downforce - and drag - is reduced when they want it reduced.
An effective wing actually creates quite a lot of drag - so the desire to push a car down in the corners has to be balanced against the desire for less drag in the straights. By stalling the wing in the straights, downforce - and drag - is reduced when they want it reduced.
http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/03/24/mercedes-...
This is a great explanation, and shows why the other teams know they have big problems replicating quickly and without huge expense.
It is truly ingenious, but I suppose it will be banned for next year.
This is a great explanation, and shows why the other teams know they have big problems replicating quickly and without huge expense.
It is truly ingenious, but I suppose it will be banned for next year.
Inertiatic said:
I didn't quite get it until I saw the explanation on BBC.
It doesn't 'blow' the front wing as such, but let's it draw air from the rear to reduce the low pressure area under the front wing...reducing downforce and drag
Blowing, sucking, meh all the same. Air from high pressure to low pressure.It doesn't 'blow' the front wing as such, but let's it draw air from the rear to reduce the low pressure area under the front wing...reducing downforce and drag
Not a massively efficient system, large pressure drop on an already not massive (compared to the F-duct) pressure difference through all that ducting.
The team won its world championship through clever aero innovation, but I think they have probably been chasing this one at the expense of refinement in other areas.
Adam205 said:
Blowing, sucking, meh all the same. Air from high pressure to low pressure.
Not a massively efficient system, large pressure drop on an already not massive (compared to the F-duct) pressure difference through all that ducting.
The team won its world championship through clever aero innovation, but I think they have probably been chasing this one at the expense of refinement in other areas.
Plus it's really only of benefit in qualifying - since the balance of the car doesn't shift when they engage DRS they can open it much earlier. In the race you can only open it on a straight so it's much less of a benefit, and I think that's why we're seeing some distinctly so-so races from Mercedes.Not a massively efficient system, large pressure drop on an already not massive (compared to the F-duct) pressure difference through all that ducting.
The team won its world championship through clever aero innovation, but I think they have probably been chasing this one at the expense of refinement in other areas.
It does rather make the "no moveable aero" rule look a bit stupid though; I wonder if we're going to see some movement in the rules on that?
Bedazzled said:
Interesting that they have been testing it stalling elements of the rear wing too, which I'd have thought would offer a bigger drag reduction; bodes well for Monza and Spa. Pity the old Hockenheim circuit has been ruined, I used to love watching them draft each other on the long straights.
It doesn't do anything extra to the rear wing I think - it's the DRS system that reduces rear wing angle that acuates it, which means that there isn't much to stall.The bonus with this isn't really in drag reduction, even though it will be reducing the drag a little more than the other teams' systems - the DRS system moves the balance of the car a long way forwards when it's engaged, making the cars very oversteery and meaning that engaging it in corners will often result in fiery death.
The Mercedes system means that downforce is lost from both ends of the car at the same time. That means that, while grip is reduced further, it's much easier to manage, meaning you can get the DRS engaged much earlier than everyone else, which obviously is a huge help.
weyland yutani said:
What is stalling?
A wing stalls when the airflow over the "top" surface of the wing is disrupted in such a way that it breaks up and stops producing lift. This happens on an aircraft when the airspeed is reduced to such an extent that there is sufficient airflow across the wing surface to generate lift. A wing on an aeroplane can also be stalled using "pop-up" devices such as "spoilers" which break up the airflow. You often see spoilers activated on an airliner wing immediately after touch down - 
The term "spoiler" is often misused in motor racing.
Back in the mid 1960s when designers were beginning to look at the use of upside down wings, deflectors, air dams etc to improve aerodynamic grip, they were usnsure how regulatory bodies would react to to the fitting of such devices. So, in order to obfuscate the true reason these devices were being fitted (i.e. the generation of downforce), they were often referred to as "spoliers" as this hinted that their purpose was to improve airflow around the car and not simply to generate negative lift.
The only true "spoilers" I can think of in motor racing are the roof mounted "pop-up" flaps that are fitted to NASACRs to try and stop them lifting if they go into a spin.
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