Child dies, parents arrested on suspicion of murder

[sadoksevoli]

The facts as presented in the story are extremely, utterly worrying. Imagine you are a parent and your child suddenly starts fitting and dies. You are then arrested on suspicion of murder, apparently as a matter of procedure - that when a child around that age dies with the parents present (or some such justification) the police arrest the parents on suspicion of murder...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-176...

If this is the case, this is UNACCEPTABLE - the police blindly following procedure on the basis of past failures - thus putting two parents through an even more traumatic ordeal.

If the child had died at school, or in a care home, no one gets arrested. But if you're a parent you're already automatically suspected... we seem to have a rather sick, mindless flavour of blinded, faceless bureaucrat ruling this country through lunacy.

[Bree]

The article says it was the Paramedics that called the Police, something they wouldn't do unless they suspected something about the situation was wrong.

[grumbledoak]

I don't see a problem. Maybe read the article again?

[miniman]

I read this earlier and concluded that there had to be more to the story than has been reported so far. I hope.

[sadoksevoli]

"Hampshire police had initially said they were treating the girl's death as suspicious because of her age."

It feels as if the paramedics made a judgement call but in turn the police made another one - and maybe there are some more elements to the case which we may never find out but the haste with which the arrest was made and in the circumstances that have been described seems indecent - these parents jsut lost their daughter and face arrest, lo and behold released without charge a few hours later - I think this stinks.

[Eric Mc]

sadoksevoli said:

"Hampshire police had initially said they were treating the girl's death as suspicious because of her age."

It feels as if the paramedics made a judgement call but in turn the police made another one - and maybe there are some more elements to the case which we may never find out but the haste with which the arrest was made and in the circumstances that have been described seems indecent - these parents jsut lost their daughter and face arrest, lo and behold released without charge a few hours later - I think this stinks.

Since very few of the facts have emerged I don't think anyone can think anything at the moment.

[Gargamel]

If you are the parent in that situation, you should get a solicitor, but probably won't as likely you are in shock.

Wonder what type of police interview techniques are used in these situations.

I agree with the op, if it is Routine procedure. Then it is a worrying development

[HeatonNorris]

To defend the police on this one...

They have to remove the persons suspected in case they tamper with potential evidence.

I'm sure people would be even more 'up in arms' if it turned out the parents *were* guilty, but the police couldn't secure a conviction as they'd had time and opportunity to destroy evidence.

[Du1point8]

HeatonNorris said:

To defend the police on this one...

They have to remove the persons suspected in case they tamper with potential evidence.

I'm sure people would be even more 'up in arms' if it turned out the parents *were* guilty, but the police couldn't secure a conviction as they'd had time and opportunity to destroy evidence.

^^^^^

Been too many its the parents and then the police get the blame for not doing enough when they should have, etc...

Better for them to be safe...

[sadoksevoli]

HeatonNorris said:

To defend the police on this one...

They have to remove the persons suspected in case they tamper with potential evidence.

I'm sure people would be even more 'up in arms' if it turned out the parents *were* guilty, but the police couldn't secure a conviction as they'd had time and opportunity to destroy evidence.

Errr, remove possibly easy - they'll be in hospital learning that their child won't wake up.
Furthermore it is whether the judgement call that established the grounds for suspicion and subsequent arrest was based on procedure and prejudices stemming from the countless past screw-ups by the state, or based on evidence available there and then. Given the way the state behaves towards parents who have the misfortune to fall under its steely glare, this is potentially another sign of just how far removed our state apparatus at the grass roots level is from common decency, common sense and being able to make justifiable decisions on the spot and not get crucified for them if they prove to be wrong.

[Du1point8]

sadoksevoli said:

HeatonNorris said:

To defend the police on this one...

They have to remove the persons suspected in case they tamper with potential evidence.

I'm sure people would be even more 'up in arms' if it turned out the parents *were* guilty, but the police couldn't secure a conviction as they'd had time and opportunity to destroy evidence.

Errr, remove possibly easy - they'll be in hospital learning that their child won't wake up.
Furthermore it is whether the judgement call that established the grounds for suspicion and subsequent arrest was based on procedure and prejudices stemming from the countless past screw-ups by the state, or based on evidence available there and then. Given the way the state behaves towards parents who have the misfortune to fall under its steely glare, this is potentially another sign of just how far removed our state apparatus at the grass roots level is from common decency, common sense and being able to make justifiable decisions on the spot and not get crucified for them if they prove to be wrong.

here is one that they did not get in time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123833/Si...

[sadoksevoli]

Du1point8 said:

^^^^^

Been too many its the parents and then the police get the blame for not doing enough when they should have, etc...

Better for them to be safe...

I am sorry, I totally disagree - the additional trauma the parents have been put through, when the balance of probability is that they are innocent (parents who kill their children are in a small minority, where small is overstating it), is totally and utterly unacceptable. Better for who to be safe - and safe from what? Do you mean a bunch of state employees be safe from jeopardising their careers and pensions for making the wrong decision, possibly a decision based on on-the-spot judgements, comnpassion and common sense? If that's what it's better to be safe from then God help us all in this benighted country.

[elster]

sadoksevoli said:

HeatonNorris said:

To defend the police on this one...

They have to remove the persons suspected in case they tamper with potential evidence.

I'm sure people would be even more 'up in arms' if it turned out the parents *were* guilty, but the police couldn't secure a conviction as they'd had time and opportunity to destroy evidence.

Errr, remove possibly easy - they'll be in hospital learning that their child won't wake up.
Furthermore it is whether the judgement call that established the grounds for suspicion and subsequent arrest was based on procedure and prejudices stemming from the countless past screw-ups by the state, or based on evidence available there and then. Given the way the state behaves towards parents who have the misfortune to fall under its steely glare, this is potentially another sign of just how far removed our state apparatus at the grass roots level is from common decency, common sense and being able to make justifiable decisions on the spot and not get crucified for them if they prove to be wrong.

Seems this phrase says it all

""The arrests made this morning were necessary as a result of a report from experienced medical professionals," the police spokeswoman said."

[sadoksevoli]

Du1point8 said:

here is one that they did not get in time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123833/Si...

Thanks for that - different country, slightly different circumstances - finding it hard to spot what that story has in common with this one.

[sadoksevoli]

elster said:

Seems this phrase says it all

""The arrests made this morning were necessary as a result of a report from experienced medical professionals," the police spokeswoman said."

As I've said - a judgement call was made by these "experienced medical professionals" and what next - the police respond with an automatic arrest... this just doesn't sound right and I would like to know more, so that I know what I'm dealing with should i ever have to call an ambulance for one of my children, especially if they're fitting or choking. If the ambulance service can put forward a sound explanation and it isn't riddled with procedural arse-covering b0ll0cks then i'll quite happily admit that I am wrong. But right now I can;t imagine what those two parents feel.

[Du1point8]

sadoksevoli said:

Du1point8 said:

here is one that they did not get in time.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2123833/Si...

Thanks for that - different country, slightly different circumstances - finding it hard to spot what that story has in common with this one.

parents kill kids cause police did not act fast enough and whole family blames them... your case is death of child and medical staff report something odd so police check... if they did not and parents skipped country, etc... everyone would be on police like flies on crap.

One case they were taking their time and death happened... got blamed.

one case they are not under advisement of medical staff... they still get blamed..

[elster]

sadoksevoli said:

elster said:

Seems this phrase says it all

""The arrests made this morning were necessary as a result of a report from experienced medical professionals," the police spokeswoman said."

As I've said - a judgement call was made by these "experienced medical professionals" and what next - the police respond with an automatic arrest... this just doesn't sound right and I would like to know more, so that I know what I'm dealing with should i ever have to call an ambulance for one of my children, especially if they're fitting or choking. If the ambulance service can put forward a sound explanation and it isn't riddled with procedural arse-covering b0ll0cks then i'll quite happily admit that I am wrong. But right now I can;t imagine what those two parents feel.

Yes, if the only evidence to hand is the paramedics then you would have to take the parents in. The paramedics are trained to and they have to take the judgement call on the spot.

I think you are just trying to be all daily mail about this, when in fact you do not know the situation on which the paramedics made the call.

[Pesty]

elster said:

Seems this phrase says it all

""The arrests made this morning were necessary as a result of a report from experienced medical professionals," the police spokeswoman said."

That staement could mea anything.

experienced medical professional could mean the first attender could even be a red cross first aider if you want to spin it enough to cover your arse.

it could mean a paramedic who possiblly has been instructed to look out for abuse. Who in this case cannot see any reason for death so is susspicious, mentions to police things escelate because they have been instructed to look out for these things and everybody wants to cover their arse.

there you go that statemet would still be correct. did they need to be arrested before the medical examination? was there a flight risk

this mud will stick with these parents with the people in the uk today it would not surprise me if they had to move house.

[sadoksevoli]

elster said:

Yes, if the only evidence to hand is the paramedics then you would have to take the parents in. The paramedics are trained to and they have to take the judgement call on the spot.

I think you are just trying to be all daily mail about this, when in fact you do not know the situation on which the paramedics made the call.

Well then it seems they got it wrong and two parents appear to have been subjected to an ordeal - I don;t accept that collective shrug of the shoulders - and again, what are the criteria the paramedics are basing their judgements upon - if it's procedural b0ll0cks that came from a bunch of bureaucrats and social workers then we have a problem.
As for being Daily Wail - you obviously haven't read my original OP, things are FAR worse than the Wail ever suggests - our state bureaucracy is creeping slowly towards inane stupidity coupled with ineffective democratic control by the people they are meant to serve - it's becoming a form of oppression.

[sadoksevoli]

Du1point8 said:

parents kill kids cause police did not act fast enough and whole family blames them... your case is death of child and medical staff report something odd so police check... if they did not and parents skipped country, etc... everyone would be on police like flies on crap.

One case they were taking their time and death happened... got blamed.

one case they are not under advisement of medical staff... they still get blamed..

Errrr - not from what i read in this story from the Wail - the children were still alive when the police were involved, the Police appear to have not acted to what seems to have been clear evidence of danger to the children according to the wife's parents - possibly the police are guilty of incompetence or just applying an incorrect judgement call - blame could jsutificably be attacehd to the police in this case AND the one I originally cited.
The question it boils down to is that do you subject hundreds if not thousands of parents to an ordeal at the hands of a cumbersome, bureaucratic and lawyer-infested criminal justice system (same here as in the USA) in the hope that you [u]may[/u] prevent a tragedy - i think it's an unacceptable lack of balance and proportionality.