Running in oil
Discussion
Hi All
I need to buy some oil for my new LS7 engine tomorrow. As it will be the first oil the engine has tasted it will be mineral to help it to bed in but what grade.
15W 40
10W 40
10W 30
20W 50
Any specific make to avoid or is any cheap oil OK to help her bed in or should it be made out of a mineral oil from one specific well, drilled in the most inaccessible part of the African continent and carried on the backs of virgins for 1000miles to a small refinery where it is turned into a magical elixir for a zillion £ a litre.
This oil will probably be in the engine for the first 1000 miles and I need almost 2.5 gallons!!!!
Paul
I need to buy some oil for my new LS7 engine tomorrow. As it will be the first oil the engine has tasted it will be mineral to help it to bed in but what grade.
15W 40
10W 40
10W 30
20W 50
Any specific make to avoid or is any cheap oil OK to help her bed in or should it be made out of a mineral oil from one specific well, drilled in the most inaccessible part of the African continent and carried on the backs of virgins for 1000miles to a small refinery where it is turned into a magical elixir for a zillion £ a litre.
This oil will probably be in the engine for the first 1000 miles and I need almost 2.5 gallons!!!!
Paul
Paul: 20-50 vavoline racing or equal should do the trick. That was the suggestion of my engine builder who builds LS motors of all sizes and shapes for several different classes of off road buggies, trucks ect. I have had this oil in my engine from dyno time forward to 10.000 miles currently. The only caveat is that racing oils need to be changed at regular intervals because thier modifier package is much different than the oil run for 7500 miles in your Honda civic. I change mine at 2000 miles but I live in a very moderate climate and the car is rarely stared without going to complete operating temps. I would question the bottom number if the engine is cold soaked below 0c and then stared on occasion then maybe a 10 or 5 weight. I would still stick with 50 on the top because of the amount of heat given off by a smog legal, 505 hp motor. Lee
spatz said:
I am using 5W30 from day one with 5000 miles on the clock, engine is a LS7 consuming no oil at all.
Have to agree- for my LS7, I was advised using a bog standard mineral oil for first 100 miles, maybe slightly heavier than stock. I used 10W40 I think, then swtiched to the recommended 5W30 fully synth thereafter.Hope that helps
Paul,
I found this, may be of use, but probably not to answer your specific question
- GM running in procedure for LSs.
PERFORMANCE
PARTS
GM
Start-up and Break-in Procedures
Safety first. If the vehicle is on the ground, be sure the emergency brake is set, the wheels are chocked and
the car cannot fall into gear. Verify everything is installed properly and nothing was missed.
1. This engine assembly needs to be filled with oil. After installing the engine, ensure the oil system has
been filled with the appropriate motor oil to the recommended oil fill level. The LS9 crate engine requires a
special oil meeting GM Standard GM4718M (this will be specified on the oil label). Mobil 1 is one such recommended
oil. Other oils meeting this standard may be identified as synthetic. However, not all synthetic
oils will meet this GM standard. Look for and use only an oil that meets GM Standard GM4718M. If using GM
12629421 oil tank, make sure that the oil level falls within the cross hatched area on the dipstick once the oil
is warm. Also check and fill as required any other necessary fluids such as coolant, power steering fluid,
etc.
2. The engine should be primed with oil before starting. Install an oil pressure gauge (the existing oil pressure
sensor location at the upper rear of the engine may be used) and disconnect the engine control system (removing
power from the engine control module is generally recommended, but check your engine control system
information for additional details). Note: Disconnecting only ignition or fuel injector connectors is not
recommended – make sure the control system will not provide ignition or fuel to the engine.
3. Once the engine control system has been disconnected, crank the engine using the starter for 10 seconds
and check for oil pressure. If no pressure is indicated, wait 30 seconds and crank again for 10 seconds.
Repeat this process until oil pressure is indicated on the gauge.
4. Reconnect the engine control system. Start the engine and listen for any unusual noises. If no unusual
noises are noted, run the engine at approximately 1000 RPM until normal operating temperature is reached.
5. When possible, you should always allow the engine to warm up prior to driving. It is a good practice to allow
the oil sump and water temperature to reach 180°F before towing heavy loads or performing hard acceleration
runs.
6. The engine should be driven at varying loads and conditions for the first 30 miles or one hour without wide
open throttle (WOT) or sustained high RPM accelerations.
7. Run five or six medium throttle (50%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in gear.
8. Run two or three hard throttle (WOT 100%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in
gear.
9. Change the oil and filter. Replace the oil per the specification in step 1, and replace the filter with a new
UPF48R AC Delco oil filter. Inspect the oil and the oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine
is functioning properly.
10. Drive the next 500 miles (12 to 15 engine hours) under normal conditions. Do not run the engine at its maximum
rated engine speed. Also, do not expose the engine to extended periods of high load.
11. Change the oil and filter. Again, inspect the oil and oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine
is functioning properly.
I found this, may be of use, but probably not to answer your specific question
- GM running in procedure for LSs. PERFORMANCE
PARTS
GM
Start-up and Break-in Procedures
Safety first. If the vehicle is on the ground, be sure the emergency brake is set, the wheels are chocked and
the car cannot fall into gear. Verify everything is installed properly and nothing was missed.
1. This engine assembly needs to be filled with oil. After installing the engine, ensure the oil system has
been filled with the appropriate motor oil to the recommended oil fill level. The LS9 crate engine requires a
special oil meeting GM Standard GM4718M (this will be specified on the oil label). Mobil 1 is one such recommended
oil. Other oils meeting this standard may be identified as synthetic. However, not all synthetic
oils will meet this GM standard. Look for and use only an oil that meets GM Standard GM4718M. If using GM
12629421 oil tank, make sure that the oil level falls within the cross hatched area on the dipstick once the oil
is warm. Also check and fill as required any other necessary fluids such as coolant, power steering fluid,
etc.
2. The engine should be primed with oil before starting. Install an oil pressure gauge (the existing oil pressure
sensor location at the upper rear of the engine may be used) and disconnect the engine control system (removing
power from the engine control module is generally recommended, but check your engine control system
information for additional details). Note: Disconnecting only ignition or fuel injector connectors is not
recommended – make sure the control system will not provide ignition or fuel to the engine.
3. Once the engine control system has been disconnected, crank the engine using the starter for 10 seconds
and check for oil pressure. If no pressure is indicated, wait 30 seconds and crank again for 10 seconds.
Repeat this process until oil pressure is indicated on the gauge.
4. Reconnect the engine control system. Start the engine and listen for any unusual noises. If no unusual
noises are noted, run the engine at approximately 1000 RPM until normal operating temperature is reached.
5. When possible, you should always allow the engine to warm up prior to driving. It is a good practice to allow
the oil sump and water temperature to reach 180°F before towing heavy loads or performing hard acceleration
runs.
6. The engine should be driven at varying loads and conditions for the first 30 miles or one hour without wide
open throttle (WOT) or sustained high RPM accelerations.
7. Run five or six medium throttle (50%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in gear.
8. Run two or three hard throttle (WOT 100%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in
gear.
9. Change the oil and filter. Replace the oil per the specification in step 1, and replace the filter with a new
UPF48R AC Delco oil filter. Inspect the oil and the oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine
is functioning properly.
10. Drive the next 500 miles (12 to 15 engine hours) under normal conditions. Do not run the engine at its maximum
rated engine speed. Also, do not expose the engine to extended periods of high load.
11. Change the oil and filter. Again, inspect the oil and oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine
is functioning properly.
they probably copy these instruction for 50 years now, wake up, we are in 2010 not in 1950 anymore.
Machinery and metal is way superior to what we had in the good old days.......German VW CEO said once, it would be best for the car to weld the bonnet for the first 100.000km......ok of course the oil companies and repair service centers did not like it so much......
Machinery and metal is way superior to what we had in the good old days.......German VW CEO said once, it would be best for the car to weld the bonnet for the first 100.000km......ok of course the oil companies and repair service centers did not like it so much......
spatz said:
they probably copy these instruction for 50 years now, wake up, we are in 2010 not in 1950 anymore.
Machinery and metal is way superior to what we had in the good old days.......German VW CEO said once, it would be best for the car to weld the bonnet for the first 100.000km......ok of course the oil companies and repair service centers did not like it so much......
Don't think so they use to say just no high loads for 500 miles nothing about the later loading the rings stile runnin why do now....Machinery and metal is way superior to what we had in the good old days.......German VW CEO said once, it would be best for the car to weld the bonnet for the first 100.000km......ok of course the oil companies and repair service centers did not like it so much......
But all gm LS7's started there brakein on the dyno before leave the engine assemble line anyway.... but if you have changed the piston and rings etc and its not been dyno tunned yet then that changes it some what
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
This was a eye opener for me
But think logically about it before you dismiss it.
Most engines built and tuned on a Dyno are broken in then tunned to get the max out of them within a day
so these engines are loaded up early in there life kind of proving this guys theory.....
My only problem with it, is that if you don't have a decent base map to start with its hard to load the engine up early
unless you have a self learning map that can quickly get the lambda right.... which is why I'm leaning towards the ViPec ECU
as it has a self learning way of getting the fuel tables started very quickly ( its not a perminant self learning system just a
way of populating the tables quick when you have no base mapp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBDkWpwSiN4&fea...
This was a eye opener for me
But think logically about it before you dismiss it.
Most engines built and tuned on a Dyno are broken in then tunned to get the max out of them within a day
so these engines are loaded up early in there life kind of proving this guys theory.....
My only problem with it, is that if you don't have a decent base map to start with its hard to load the engine up early
unless you have a self learning map that can quickly get the lambda right.... which is why I'm leaning towards the ViPec ECU
as it has a self learning way of getting the fuel tables started very quickly ( its not a perminant self learning system just a
way of populating the tables quick when you have no base mapp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBDkWpwSiN4&fea...
Spun up and fired.... in effect pressured checked... dont fall for the GM sales Hype...... excellent designs.....but mediocre execution and little more lets em down regularly ... same as the rest of their products.
If it runs for the first 20 miles, maintains pressures and doesnt fill the sump with swarfe you are in with a chance.
Modern lubricant and material tech are heavily relied upon over production QC and usually see's them through !
If you want a proper hand-built race engine to lube and caress, it'll be multiples of a 10K LS.
Merely cheap HP ..... best kept in context.
If it runs for the first 20 miles, maintains pressures and doesnt fill the sump with swarfe you are in with a chance.
Modern lubricant and material tech are heavily relied upon over production QC and usually see's them through !
If you want a proper hand-built race engine to lube and caress, it'll be multiples of a 10K LS.
Merely cheap HP ..... best kept in context.
Thanks for the replies guys.
I have had some advice from an experienced LS engine installer which I put a lot of faith in and I thought I would share it.
These modern LS engines are designed (if not tampered with) to run on 5W 30 fully synthetic straight from the the off. GM recommend Mobil 1 (probably gets them cheap oil) but other quality 5W 30 fully synthetic oils should be OK too.#
Another reason for not starting off with a mineral oil is contamination of the future synthetic oil. It is impossible to remove all the mineral oil you run the engine in on, and thus contaminate the new oil which reduces it's effectiveness.
5W 30 fully synthetic it is then.
Paul
I have had some advice from an experienced LS engine installer which I put a lot of faith in and I thought I would share it.
These modern LS engines are designed (if not tampered with) to run on 5W 30 fully synthetic straight from the the off. GM recommend Mobil 1 (probably gets them cheap oil) but other quality 5W 30 fully synthetic oils should be OK too.#
Another reason for not starting off with a mineral oil is contamination of the future synthetic oil. It is impossible to remove all the mineral oil you run the engine in on, and thus contaminate the new oil which reduces it's effectiveness.
5W 30 fully synthetic it is then.
Paul
I think you might want to stop and think about why GM supports syn oil. Syn oil will help with gas mileage. GM is not going to write a seperate set of instructions for crate motors. therefore syn oil it is. You as a Ultima owner don't have that mandate. Furthermore I am going to suggest that our cars are usualy driven far enough on each start to get up to 100% operating temp and we change our oil much more frequently than we do on our daily driver. I bought 14 qts of Valvoline 20-50 racing oil yesterday at $4.95 per qt and changed the oil on the GTR with a little over 1900 miles on the oil at 7 or 8 dollars a qt for syn that's a big cost difference. I guess it all depends on how you see your use of the motor. If its a daily driver with lots of short trips I would buy syn oil. lee
I think for a motor which is not reving at 18k oil changes are way too many, if you think it in hours, at typically 70km average speed, you have only clocked
142 hours between oil changes if you do it every 10.000km. Any machinery including generators would be a faulty design if they needed that many oil changes.
I know they are working more stationary and at constant environment parameters but still I think oil changing is a lot about making money with it.
If you not agree ok for me, change your oil at your wish.
I typically only change every 20-40k kilometers, including my 2 turbo engined Porsche, which one of them gets very little use and if I look at the fully synthetic Mobil 1 that I use it always looks like filled in yesterday.....what a pity.
142 hours between oil changes if you do it every 10.000km. Any machinery including generators would be a faulty design if they needed that many oil changes.
I know they are working more stationary and at constant environment parameters but still I think oil changing is a lot about making money with it.
If you not agree ok for me, change your oil at your wish.
I typically only change every 20-40k kilometers, including my 2 turbo engined Porsche, which one of them gets very little use and if I look at the fully synthetic Mobil 1 that I use it always looks like filled in yesterday.....what a pity.
Edited by spatz on Thursday 12th April 08:45
738 driver said:
Spun up and fired.... in effect pressured checked... dont fall for the GM sales Hype...... excellent designs.....but mediocre execution and little more lets em down regularly ... same as the rest of their products.
If it runs for the first 20 miles, maintains pressures and doesnt fill the sump with swarfe you are in with a chance.
Modern lubricant and material tech are heavily relied upon over production QC and usually see's them through !
Merely cheap HP ..... best kept in context.
To keep this in context, reading your post if you didn't know better it sounds like they're so badly built that you have more chance of it not making the first 20 miles, than it does of making it.If it runs for the first 20 miles, maintains pressures and doesnt fill the sump with swarfe you are in with a chance.
Modern lubricant and material tech are heavily relied upon over production QC and usually see's them through !
Merely cheap HP ..... best kept in context.
So keeping it in context, how many crate engines have been supplied, and how many are known to have failed in their early life?
Of course it's a production engine, not a handbuilt, perfect engine - how could it be for that money?
Re this:
"Modern lubricant and material tech are heavily relied upon over production QC and usually see's them through !" - is that not fair to say applies to the automotive industry in general? Certainly isn't unique to GM is it?
^ Gm have great ideas and designs... tis merely their production 'execution' that lets them down (profit not QC driven)..... far more frequently than it should and at a greater proportion than their main competitor. For example, factory LS castings, whilst doing the job they were designed for, are generally full of flaws clearly visible to the eye, let alone serious analysis. But they do the job and certain versions are suitable for mild upgrades... thats all.. big numbers on 'happy dynos' will satisfy the majority.
As for the post.... sort of realistic view on what really happens at the 7 plant... they are hand assembled... not by engine builder specialists... just assembly guys.. if the guys are any better at bolting together factory produced and toleranced parts than a cnc machine assembly line... then go ahead and pay the premium ! As for all the running-in nonsense posted, after its been spun up to max rpm to pressure test or spanked on the dyno, what is the point.
Any modern manufacturer publishing such running in rubbish on their production stuff has little confidence in its product. If its been machined correctly and assembled in a clean and proper manner.. its good to go flat out after a few mins of ring bedding.
Things have moved on since pre x flow and A series days !
As for the post.... sort of realistic view on what really happens at the 7 plant... they are hand assembled... not by engine builder specialists... just assembly guys.. if the guys are any better at bolting together factory produced and toleranced parts than a cnc machine assembly line... then go ahead and pay the premium ! As for all the running-in nonsense posted, after its been spun up to max rpm to pressure test or spanked on the dyno, what is the point.
Any modern manufacturer publishing such running in rubbish on their production stuff has little confidence in its product. If its been machined correctly and assembled in a clean and proper manner.. its good to go flat out after a few mins of ring bedding.
Things have moved on since pre x flow and A series days !
In my humble....
4yrs ago, I had the same conversation with the Ariel guys when I picked up my new Atom:
Me: how should I run it in?
Factory: warm the oil upto normal operating temperature, with light throttle and low revs...
Me: OK, should I keep the revs low for 500 miles?
Factory: No, that's the worst thing you can do. Once it's at full temp, drive it like you stole it! Don't sit a constant engine speeds (i.e. 70mph on an m-way), vary the load, but don't be afraid to use it. It's a modern engine with modern oil, babying it is will stop it achieving it's full potential power output.
In their view, they'd seen cars return which had been driven properly (i.e. correctly warmed up, then used "hard") produce more power than ones which had been "run in" according to 40yr old procedures.
I followed their advice and my car always felt great. I did the same with my RS and again, it's cracking.
As others have said, I see no reason to baby a modern engine, run on a good quality of oil. With tolerances being so tight these days (better engineering & production techniques see to that), you could find that it'll take 10K miles, maybe more, for a new engine to fully free up anyway.
As for oil changes, I think there's a lot of personal preference in that one. I change c.9mthly regardless of mileage, but that's just being fastidious.
4yrs ago, I had the same conversation with the Ariel guys when I picked up my new Atom:
Me: how should I run it in?
Factory: warm the oil upto normal operating temperature, with light throttle and low revs...
Me: OK, should I keep the revs low for 500 miles?
Factory: No, that's the worst thing you can do. Once it's at full temp, drive it like you stole it! Don't sit a constant engine speeds (i.e. 70mph on an m-way), vary the load, but don't be afraid to use it. It's a modern engine with modern oil, babying it is will stop it achieving it's full potential power output.
In their view, they'd seen cars return which had been driven properly (i.e. correctly warmed up, then used "hard") produce more power than ones which had been "run in" according to 40yr old procedures.
I followed their advice and my car always felt great. I did the same with my RS and again, it's cracking.
As others have said, I see no reason to baby a modern engine, run on a good quality of oil. With tolerances being so tight these days (better engineering & production techniques see to that), you could find that it'll take 10K miles, maybe more, for a new engine to fully free up anyway.
As for oil changes, I think there's a lot of personal preference in that one. I change c.9mthly regardless of mileage, but that's just being fastidious.
738 driver said:
Any modern manufacturer publishing such running in rubbish on their production stuff has little confidence in its product. If its been machined correctly and assembled in a clean and proper manner.. its good to go flat out after a few mins of ring bedding.
Things have moved on since pre x flow and A series days !
Of course, but manufacturers always have to build their products and procedures against the lowest common denominator. If they published running procedures as per above, they'd get countless numbers of feckless idiots destroying cars. And again, gm aren't unique in this, every manufacturer has cautious running in procedures, supercar manufacturers more so than run of the mill stuff. Again this can only be to protect them against the idiots nowadays.Things have moved on since pre x flow and A series days !
Larger capacity stuff seems less consistent in withstanding much above minor mods.. so Ls7 would be my least favoured as a basis of future improvements.
Ls2's seem to be very stout.... Ls3's okay too but the 3's Ive had down do have the potential for issues later in life, casting porosities/flaws in critical areas etc. They are fine as a production unit and with minor increases but beyond that take your chance unless you start replacing serious parts.
Basically bigger bore blocks and any factory pistons and rods... tread carefully with these if you are on a mission. Heads and cranks are pretty good through the range and will outlast most levels of performance demand for an Ultima install.
Top end engines do need careful handling for exactly the point made by another poster... operating temps/clearances.. hence the Italian operator Bibles supplied with them... they are not so far behind F1 tech.. of which require pre-heated engines/fluids to allow them to merely turn over to start . But we are talking GM production units here..... different altogether and not comparable to top marques and F1 tech. These Ls engines should be no more difficult to operate than a ford V6 in a Mondeo... you think the BIB run them in (not at all)? yet their engines with 150K on them regularly show less wear than grannies shopper with 12K on it.. Why ?
Ls2's seem to be very stout.... Ls3's okay too but the 3's Ive had down do have the potential for issues later in life, casting porosities/flaws in critical areas etc. They are fine as a production unit and with minor increases but beyond that take your chance unless you start replacing serious parts.
Basically bigger bore blocks and any factory pistons and rods... tread carefully with these if you are on a mission. Heads and cranks are pretty good through the range and will outlast most levels of performance demand for an Ultima install.
Top end engines do need careful handling for exactly the point made by another poster... operating temps/clearances.. hence the Italian operator Bibles supplied with them... they are not so far behind F1 tech.. of which require pre-heated engines/fluids to allow them to merely turn over to start . But we are talking GM production units here..... different altogether and not comparable to top marques and F1 tech. These Ls engines should be no more difficult to operate than a ford V6 in a Mondeo... you think the BIB run them in (not at all)? yet their engines with 150K on them regularly show less wear than grannies shopper with 12K on it.. Why ?
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