Advice - not car related

[Vantagefan]

Sorry to again be asking you for advice but to be honest I couldn't think of a better bunch of people than the visitors of this place to help.

I've had the pleasure of meeting many customers over the years and eventually the conversation always turned to what they did for a living (I'm not going to ask anyone to divulge, don't worry)almost everyone had started, owned or recently sold their own business.

To anyone willing to share how does this come about?

I don't come from a family of entrepreneurs and they certainly don't have the funds to back a venture of mine but I'm wondering whether it's purely networking to get off the ground, or are there exhibitions, seminars you can go on to meet investors? Banks are great for cash but if you're inexperienced in business a guiding hand is better.

Short of going on Dragon's Den I just wondered if anyone older and wiser knows better.

[George H]

I'll be watching this with interest. I've got an idea that I think is original (can't seem to find any evidence of it being used) that could be used in aircraft wings or in F1 aero. No idea where to start though, just an idea at the moment.

[V8LM]

Funding required and where to get from depends a lot on what type of business - making / selling products, or selling a service. The former almost always requires significant investment and is cash negative to start with, whereas the latter can often be grown organically (profit from the first job (get them to pay upfront) funds the second and a bit of the third). The former is higher risk but with higher rewards in the long term. A business starts with a good idea. A business survives on a great idea. A business succeeds on a fantastic idea (and this good/great/fantastic is in the eye of the customers, not you).

[yeti]

George H said:

I'll be watching this with interest. I've got an idea that I think is original (can't seem to find any evidence of it being used) that could be used in aircraft wings or in F1 aero. No idea where to start though, just an idea at the moment.

The patent office immediately!! First breath you breathe of an unprotected idea, someone will have it from you. No gentlemen's agreements, just get it registered as your idea George

I run my own business, but it's more that I am a one-man limited company with a secretary. It;s not fun, HMRC are relentless looking for benefits of benefits of benefits that you never even thought of...

[George H]

yeti said:

The patent office immediately!! First breath you breathe of an unprotected idea, someone will have it from you. No gentlemen's agreements, just get it registered as your idea George

I do need to get it done, but it's literally just an idea at the moment, I've not had the time to make a model, do drawings, tests or anything like that. There are skills required to test it that I simply don't possess too, so a 2nd party would need to be involved at some stage. I've only done a few searches through google patents too, I've heard patent companies that search for you are expensive and what happens if they do find something that contradicts your idea?

I've got a few others too that could be implemented into luxury cars, but again, just ideas. The aerodynamics one is my main priority, just don't have the time, or the funds to develop it seriously

[don4l]

I saved up £15k and used that to start up in the early 90's.

The bank did offer funding, but they wanted the house as security. Fortunately, I refused. I suspect that I would still have an overdraft if I had accepted it then.


Don
--

[Vantagefan]

Similar to George but whereas (after significant investment and research) you could prove the benefits to secure further investment if your idea relies on social/digital platforms how can you measure the interest without telling people about it and suffering from having it stolen?

Can something like a social media platform be patented or is that simply idea copyright?

[RIB27]

V8LM said:

Funding required and where to get from depends a lot on what type of business - making / selling products, or selling a service. The former almost always requires significant investment and is cash negative to start with, whereas the latter can often be grown organically (profit from the first job (get them to pay upfront) funds the second and a bit of the third). The former is higher risk but with higher rewards in the long term. A business starts with a good idea. A business survives on a great idea. A business succeeds on a fantastic idea (and this good/great/fantastic is in the eye of the customers, not you).

I think this is sound advice. Ultimately it depends what you want to do, and what you feel comfortable with as to whether you need funding or not. Some ideas simply need cash investment to get off the ground, for example where complex prototyping is required.

My personal experience is that of starting with nothing and growing organically. If money is an issue, I've seen many great businesses started by people while they're still working a regular job until the company can sustain them full time. It all depends on your personal circumstances.

On the other hand, startup funding can help your business "explode" into the marketplace. But for a business starting with nothing, it also means you start on Day 1 with a big "debt" hanging around your neck. It's high risk - you might skyrocket, but equally if you fall you'll fall hard.

I'm no Alan Sugar but if I had to give anybody advice on starting their own business it would be: Make sure your idea is sound, do your research and don't kid yourself. If you're still convinced, then just get out there and try it! Best laid plans always change once you're moving so just get stuck in and give it a go.

[Vantagefan]

Good advice and thank you, is there anywhere you can receive 'mentorship' on pitfalls, accounts and marketing if you haven't been down this road before?

[Rex Racer]

A couple of comments from a (U.S.) patent attorney:

First, you don't need to build a model of an invention or test it in order to file for a patent. All the patent offices care about (generally speaking) is that the invention is new and non-obvious (exhibits an "inventive step"). They are less concerned about whether it actually works (in most cases), is a "good" invention, or is commercially viable. As yeti said, it's best practice to file a patent application before you start talking to a bunch of people (e.g., designers, engineers, and investors).

As for the social media platform, such software inventions are currently patentable in the U.S. I believe it can be a bit more difficult to secure patent protection in Europe, but I think it is still possible. In the U.S., it's currently just a matter of writing the patent claims in a particular way. I say "currently" because things are still a bit in flux. The rules have changed in recent years, and could change again. As for copyright, it's an option too, but only really protects you against those who outright copy your code because the copyright would only protect the specific code and not the underlying functionality the code enables.

Disclaimer: This is just general IP information and is not intended as specific legal advice for the readers. I suggest you retain your own IP attorney in your own geographical area if you are serious about protecting your intellectual property.

[George H]

Rex Racer said:

A couple of comments from a (U.S.) patent attorney:

First, you don't need to build a model of an invention or test it in order to file for a patent. All the patent offices care about (generally speaking) is that the invention is new and non-obvious (exhibits an "inventive step"). They are less concerned about whether it actually works (in most cases), is a "good" invention, or is commercially viable. As yeti said, it's best practice to file a patent application before you start talking to a bunch of people (e.g., designers, engineers, and investors).

So are patents free to apply for?

The only reason I haven't applied for any is because I wasn't 100% that it would work, and it would take a lot of development to get it working properly. I guess there is no reason why I couldn't apply for it using sketches to explain the fundementals of the design, but I wouldn't want to spend money on it if there is no garuntee that it will work as planned.

[V8LM]

George H said:

I do need to get it done, but it's literally just an idea at the moment, I've not had the time to make a model, do drawings, tests or anything like that. There are skills required to test it that I simply don't possess too, so a 2nd party would need to be involved at some stage. I've only done a few searches through google patents too, I've heard patent companies that search for you are expensive and what happens if they do find something that contradicts your idea?

I've got a few others too that could be implemented into luxury cars, but again, just ideas. The aerodynamics one is my main priority, just don't have the time, or the funds to develop it seriously

You can file a provisional application relatively cheaply and quickly. This then gives you 12 months to submit the full application which needs help in preparing, and then depending on what is found in the prior art can either result in lots of rewriting and lots more money spend, or give up.

If something is in the prior art that explains your idea then the patent is not issued. If that patent is still in date then you can't sell your thing without being in breach of their patent. If your idea is patented to you you may still get challenged from someone else who has a prior patent (filed before yours) that they believe covers your idea. Your patent can then be challenged on validity and your thing on infringement.

You should also be careful about on whose time and expense and environment you are in when you came up with and worked on the idea. Difficult to control I know, but make sure you don't breach your contract of employment if you, for example, are working it the aerospace industry and you file a patent without mention of your employer for an invention relating to aerodynamics. Even if you give up your job now, your employer may still claim the invention was of their doing and have claim on anything resulting from the patent.

Edited by V8LM on Wednesday 18th April 15:25

[F1 NDW]

[quote=Vantagefan]Sorry to again be asking you for advice but to be honest I couldn't think of a better bunch of people than the visitors of this place to help.

To anyone willing to share how does this come about?

quote]

It comes about with a lot more hard work than most people are willing to give!

[Rex Racer]

George H said:

So are patents free to apply for?

The only reason I haven't applied for any is because I wasn't 100% that it would work, and it would take a lot of development to get it working properly. I guess there is no reason why I couldn't apply for it using sketches to explain the fundementals of the design, but I wouldn't want to spend money on it if there is no garuntee that it will work as planned.

No, not free. You could file your own provisional application (a temporary measure) as was stated above, but it'd probably be best to have a professional help you. However, once the provisional is on file, you would have a year to shop the idea around and possibly find an investor to help with the fees for the full-fledged non-provisional application. Patenting is very expensive, especially if you seek protection in multiple territories.

[V8LM]

A provisional application is also a good way to help secure funding from investors.

[George H]

So a provisional application would still prevent others from stealing the idea? Can I apply for one even if I'm not 100% sure that it won't infringe on an existing patent?

[Vantagefan]

[quote] It comes about with a lot more hard work than most people are willing to give!
[/quote]

Good. Fortunately youth, naivety and ambition are things that are not in short supply. Thanks for the great advice. I once spoke to a chap that set up a London-based record label having raised capital from buying, doing up and selling cars. He saved £30,000 this way, now the label (Disturbing London for anyone interested)is doing very well.

I'd struggle with cars but I have a house on my radar that needs a little refresh...

[V8LM]

George H said:

So a provisional application would still prevent others from stealing the idea? Can I apply for one even if I'm not 100% sure that it won't infringe on an existing patent?

You can put it in, yes. It means, should your full application be granted, the priority date is from when the provisional was made. Stops someone else obtaining a valid patent before you, providing you submit your full application within 12 months.

[George H]

Oh right, that makes sense, thanks

I shall look into it.

[V8LM]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or attorney by the way, so best seek advice from someone who is.