R33 GTST/ S14 200sx / GT4/ MR2 Turbo
Discussion
Hi guys,
I am going to be selling my EP3 type R, and am looking to spend about 3k on a car that i will use until I save enough for a Supra TT. This car would then hopefully then turn into a track car!
I am thinking of either R33 GTST/ S14 200sx / GT4/ MR2 Turbo (rev3)
my budget is around 3k, I have not driven or been in any of the cars, I like the idea of AWD with the GT4, as im assuming it handle the best out of the pick? and from what it seems GT4 owners seem to own their cars for the longest time!
What do you guys think? anyone owned more then one of these cars?
cheers
M
I am going to be selling my EP3 type R, and am looking to spend about 3k on a car that i will use until I save enough for a Supra TT. This car would then hopefully then turn into a track car!
I am thinking of either R33 GTST/ S14 200sx / GT4/ MR2 Turbo (rev3)
my budget is around 3k, I have not driven or been in any of the cars, I like the idea of AWD with the GT4, as im assuming it handle the best out of the pick? and from what it seems GT4 owners seem to own their cars for the longest time!
What do you guys think? anyone owned more then one of these cars?
cheers
M
Well, which car handles the best depends on what you mean by handling. To me, handling means the car tells the driver what's happening, and is responsive to the driver's command, giving them options about how they drive the corner. According to my definition, I would rank them
MR2 (mid-engined)
200SX
R33 (much like SX but bigger and heavier)
GT4 (understeer-biased layout)
however, if you want the best lap times, either of the Toyotas would probably be a good bet, the MR2 in the dry and the GT4 in the wet perhaps. The FR Nissans suffer from a lack of traction on corner exit - this is fun (to me), but not as fast.
MR2 (mid-engined)
200SX
R33 (much like SX but bigger and heavier)
GT4 (understeer-biased layout)
however, if you want the best lap times, either of the Toyotas would probably be a good bet, the MR2 in the dry and the GT4 in the wet perhaps. The FR Nissans suffer from a lack of traction on corner exit - this is fun (to me), but not as fast.
Having owned all of the above I can give you some good feedback on this! 
Re GT4 I've had 4 of them and yes they have a tendency to understeer in stock trim, a decent set of coilovers and adjustable ARBs can dial them into being a pretty neutral car, however it does cost money to do that. At the end of the day the key problem they have is that they are massively overweight.
MR2 - Tail happy and they can spin easily if you are pushing hard and not got your wits about you, know a lot of people who have lost them, I only did once at Brands but it was entirely my fault, never stick them on lowering springs, they need coilies or stock setup otherwise they are a pig at speed.
200SX - Personal favourite, I'd disagree that they are overly tail happy, that depends on how well you dirve and how well the car is set up, coilovers, ARBs, corner weighting, Skyline brakes (or similar). A 200SX can be set up as a fantastic grip car.
GTST - Arguably the R32 is the better car for track days in my opinion mainly because I think the 2.0 straight 6 is better for small circuits which most people will go on, the R33 is an incredibly capable car though, great handling and they are very predictable, the HiCas has mixed opinions, I didn't mind it entirely but a locout bar will give you much better feel. Out of the box the R33 is probably what I would go for if you are not looking to spend buckets of cash on getting the setup right. Be prepared though, if things go wrong with the engine on any RB engine then you are in for BIG bills.
Also if you are looking at these as an option and thinking of trading up to a supra eventually I'd suggest you try driving all of them AND the Supra, I'd hazard you will find a Supra a bit of a let down if you are expecting something stellar by comparison.
The other thing is if you are going from an EP Civic and are used to FWD this is going to be a big change going to a reasonably big power RWD car so you may want to think of 4WD as the better option. please don't be one of those dudes who buys a RWD car and crashes it in the first week because he doesn't knwo how to drive it properly! (not saying you are BTW)
Re GT4 I've had 4 of them and yes they have a tendency to understeer in stock trim, a decent set of coilovers and adjustable ARBs can dial them into being a pretty neutral car, however it does cost money to do that. At the end of the day the key problem they have is that they are massively overweight.
MR2 - Tail happy and they can spin easily if you are pushing hard and not got your wits about you, know a lot of people who have lost them, I only did once at Brands but it was entirely my fault, never stick them on lowering springs, they need coilies or stock setup otherwise they are a pig at speed.
200SX - Personal favourite, I'd disagree that they are overly tail happy, that depends on how well you dirve and how well the car is set up, coilovers, ARBs, corner weighting, Skyline brakes (or similar). A 200SX can be set up as a fantastic grip car.
GTST - Arguably the R32 is the better car for track days in my opinion mainly because I think the 2.0 straight 6 is better for small circuits which most people will go on, the R33 is an incredibly capable car though, great handling and they are very predictable, the HiCas has mixed opinions, I didn't mind it entirely but a locout bar will give you much better feel. Out of the box the R33 is probably what I would go for if you are not looking to spend buckets of cash on getting the setup right. Be prepared though, if things go wrong with the engine on any RB engine then you are in for BIG bills.
Also if you are looking at these as an option and thinking of trading up to a supra eventually I'd suggest you try driving all of them AND the Supra, I'd hazard you will find a Supra a bit of a let down if you are expecting something stellar by comparison.
The other thing is if you are going from an EP Civic and are used to FWD this is going to be a big change going to a reasonably big power RWD car so you may want to think of 4WD as the better option. please don't be one of those dudes who buys a RWD car and crashes it in the first week because he doesn't knwo how to drive it properly! (not saying you are BTW)
What I was getting at is not slapping on lowering springs with stock shocks, terrible combo, pretty much on any car for that matter, but bloody awful on an MR2 if you are ever going to stick it on a track.
Personally I'd never run anythinhg other than coilovers (and not Ebay cheapies) on any car I was going to take on the track.
Personally I'd never run anythinhg other than coilovers (and not Ebay cheapies) on any car I was going to take on the track.
I've owned an MR2 Turbo and 200sx and they're very different beasts. As a pure track toy the MR2 wins hands down. However, as a daily driver the 200 comes out on top.
My 200 is running roughly 340Bhp with coilovers, 225-45-17 tyres on the front and 235-45-17 on the rear. I've never had a problem with it being overly tail happy even in the wet.
The 2 cars have a similar sized boot (surprisingly large in the MR2) but the 200 has an extra 2 seats, I've had 4 adults in mine although it was a squeeze.
If the choice were between the two I'd say it depends on what you need in terms of practicality.
My 200 is running roughly 340Bhp with coilovers, 225-45-17 tyres on the front and 235-45-17 on the rear. I've never had a problem with it being overly tail happy even in the wet.
The 2 cars have a similar sized boot (surprisingly large in the MR2) but the 200 has an extra 2 seats, I've had 4 adults in mine although it was a squeeze.
If the choice were between the two I'd say it depends on what you need in terms of practicality.
daza said:
Does anyone know of a 200sx being broken for spares. I'm after the sr20det complete engine, loom, ecu and manual gearbox?
D
Have a look over at SXOC there's usually a few being broken.D
I hear GT4s are pretty lardy, and due in part to that a pretty hard car to obtain good feedback from. They'll be the car to have when it rains and you want to go fast mind. All the cars that you've suggested there are completely different kettles of fish.
I've driven a 200SX with a welded diff, so perhaps that's not a fair comparison. It was a hoot though, going sideways out of pretty much every corner, having said that I wouldn't own one as a track car. In fact I wouldn't own one at all.
Mainly because I have the MR-2 sat in the driveway. I find it to a joy to drive and to own. It's practical enough if you don't have kids or more than one mate, plenty of boot space etc. The car provides and excellent amount of feedback and rewards you for driving it smoothly. I don't find it an easy car to go fast in, but it's an incredibly gratifying drive, you may even miss how hamfisted you could afford to be in the Civic. If you even let your concentration slip a little you could well find yourself exiting a roundabout sideways.
It should be noted that they are rear biased in weight, not 'perfectly balanced' as you may be led to think. This causes you to brake late into turns to shift weight to the front of the car. You have a lot to do in a limited space of time in comparison to a regular FF or FR car, as you can get on the power earlier too.
On the negative side they too are quite heavy - I think the turbos weigh in at about 1250-1300kg. Non turbos a hundred Kg less or so.
I've driven a 200SX with a welded diff, so perhaps that's not a fair comparison. It was a hoot though, going sideways out of pretty much every corner, having said that I wouldn't own one as a track car. In fact I wouldn't own one at all.
Mainly because I have the MR-2 sat in the driveway. I find it to a joy to drive and to own. It's practical enough if you don't have kids or more than one mate, plenty of boot space etc. The car provides and excellent amount of feedback and rewards you for driving it smoothly. I don't find it an easy car to go fast in, but it's an incredibly gratifying drive, you may even miss how hamfisted you could afford to be in the Civic. If you even let your concentration slip a little you could well find yourself exiting a roundabout sideways.
It should be noted that they are rear biased in weight, not 'perfectly balanced' as you may be led to think. This causes you to brake late into turns to shift weight to the front of the car. You have a lot to do in a limited space of time in comparison to a regular FF or FR car, as you can get on the power earlier too.
On the negative side they too are quite heavy - I think the turbos weigh in at about 1250-1300kg. Non turbos a hundred Kg less or so.
Tib said:
I hear GT4s are pretty lardy, and due in part to that a pretty hard car to obtain good feedback from. They'll be the car to have when it rains and you want to go fast mind. All the cars that you've suggested there are completely different kettles of fish.
I've driven a 200SX with a welded diff, so perhaps that's not a fair comparison. It was a hoot though, going sideways out of pretty much every corner, having said that I wouldn't own one as a track car. In fact I wouldn't own one at all.
Mainly because I have the MR-2 sat in the driveway. I find it to a joy to drive and to own. It's practical enough if you don't have kids or more than one mate, plenty of boot space etc. The car provides and excellent amount of feedback and rewards you for driving it smoothly. I don't find it an easy car to go fast in, but it's an incredibly gratifying drive, you may even miss how hamfisted you could afford to be in the Civic. If you even let your concentration slip a little you could well find yourself exiting a roundabout sideways.
It should be noted that they are rear biased in weight, not 'perfectly balanced' as you may be led to think. This causes you to brake late into turns to shift weight to the front of the car. You have a lot to do in a limited space of time in comparison to a regular FF or FR car, as you can get on the power earlier too.
On the negative side they too are quite heavy - I think the turbos weigh in at about 1250-1300kg. Non turbos a hundred Kg less or so.
Agreed with all that's been said and having driven all bar the FR R33 and used to own a S14 200SX Touring, in terms of ownership and driving satisfaction, I would have (and I actually still own) the MR2 N/A any day over any of these.I've driven a 200SX with a welded diff, so perhaps that's not a fair comparison. It was a hoot though, going sideways out of pretty much every corner, having said that I wouldn't own one as a track car. In fact I wouldn't own one at all.
Mainly because I have the MR-2 sat in the driveway. I find it to a joy to drive and to own. It's practical enough if you don't have kids or more than one mate, plenty of boot space etc. The car provides and excellent amount of feedback and rewards you for driving it smoothly. I don't find it an easy car to go fast in, but it's an incredibly gratifying drive, you may even miss how hamfisted you could afford to be in the Civic. If you even let your concentration slip a little you could well find yourself exiting a roundabout sideways.
It should be noted that they are rear biased in weight, not 'perfectly balanced' as you may be led to think. This causes you to brake late into turns to shift weight to the front of the car. You have a lot to do in a limited space of time in comparison to a regular FF or FR car, as you can get on the power earlier too.
On the negative side they too are quite heavy - I think the turbos weigh in at about 1250-1300kg. Non turbos a hundred Kg less or so.
The problem with turbo car is you never get good throttle response when you adjust the throttle into and out of a corner. That transition in the inlet where it goes from vacuum to boost is what annoy me most.
I am going for a drive in Brecon this weekend with 18-odd people and I was undecided between top-down in the MR2 or the security of Mazda 6MPS if the weather turns nasty. In the end, the organiser said to me if the weather is half decent, I should take the MR2. I may miss the odd overtaking opportunity but the drive will be electric!
Lots of knowledge here guys!!
I live in MK, and here it is mainly long dual straights and roundabouts, not much B road driving! So the car will be used as a daily driver for about 12months until I can afford to buy another car and dedicate this car to a track car! so it has to be able to be lived with on a daily basis. I am planning on upgrading the suspension in the form of Coilovers or Bilsteins & Eibach springs
I can see that people generally are saying that:
- GT4 with some good coilovers and uprated ARBs the car will handle well in all conditions, the only issue is the weight of the car leading to understeer when cornering. and also the fig8 costs etc
-S14 RWD but not too tail happy (unless a welded diff) good overall medium car for a daily driver and future track use. but the engine bills can be quite large?
- MR2 turbo - The pick of the bunch for a hoon on a dry day, but on the other 360 days we have it can spin if taken into a corner too quickly... and less margin for error when cornering then the others.
-R33 GTST - Potentially big bills, not as good as a S14.
RWD experience wise, I dont have much in terms of raw RWD power as I owned a W210 320CDI for 3 years and am currently driving a E46 320ci and I am yet to drive a mid engined RWD.
I think it is looking like either the GT4 or MR2. not sure about the S14 as a friend has one, but need to drive all three of them to get the best idea i suppose?
any other advise is much appreciated
Mehdi
I live in MK, and here it is mainly long dual straights and roundabouts, not much B road driving! So the car will be used as a daily driver for about 12months until I can afford to buy another car and dedicate this car to a track car! so it has to be able to be lived with on a daily basis. I am planning on upgrading the suspension in the form of Coilovers or Bilsteins & Eibach springs
I can see that people generally are saying that:
- GT4 with some good coilovers and uprated ARBs the car will handle well in all conditions, the only issue is the weight of the car leading to understeer when cornering. and also the fig8 costs etc
-S14 RWD but not too tail happy (unless a welded diff) good overall medium car for a daily driver and future track use. but the engine bills can be quite large?
- MR2 turbo - The pick of the bunch for a hoon on a dry day, but on the other 360 days we have it can spin if taken into a corner too quickly... and less margin for error when cornering then the others.
-R33 GTST - Potentially big bills, not as good as a S14.
RWD experience wise, I dont have much in terms of raw RWD power as I owned a W210 320CDI for 3 years and am currently driving a E46 320ci and I am yet to drive a mid engined RWD.
I think it is looking like either the GT4 or MR2. not sure about the S14 as a friend has one, but need to drive all three of them to get the best idea i suppose?
any other advise is much appreciated
Mehdi
hygt2, I've only had limited running time in the turbo so I can't really comment on the nature of the engine. I find quite a few members of the owners club to be rather up themselves, so I don't frequent the place. Due to this interaction with other owners is somewhat fleeting. Presumably you could dial that transition out with a different turbo and map though, if you so wanted?
I have a rev3 N/A, and I find the power to be quite reasonable in it, I'd probably go for the V6 swap rather than the turbo though as I just feel the car just suits N/A more, perhaps as you found.
I can almost guarantee it will rain in Wales... Especially if you've bought a car with a removable roof... Having said that I'm sure you're aware there's plenty of fun to be had exiting a corner mildly sideways then powering on early so that the back end sits down nicely.
Going back to the OP:
I personally find the 2 to be better suited to winding A roads. Single track roadways require a lot of skill and road knowledge to go down with any real gusto, as you need to react that much earlier to turn in smoothly, which can be difficult.
If you do go down the MR-2 road, I wouldn't rush into upgrading the suspension the standard setup is pretty good and it's quite easy to make it worse if you don't get it set up right, or just go down the cheap route of getting some springs. Maybe it's something that's more necessary with the GT4 or the 200SX.
As always, drive as many as you can before you buy one. Drive more than one example if you are able to, that way you can get a feel for a good car as opposed to a doggy car.
One thing that I haven't figured is that you will be going for the ST205 right?
Basically you have narrowed it down to the two opposite cars haha - The GT4 will be much easier to drive and generally better behaved most of the time. Wheras the 2 will spend most of its time keeping you on your toes.
I'd urge you not to discount the MR-2 solely for it having a bit of a reputation mind, if it's not your thing fair enough, but previous to my ownership I had never owned a RWD car, let alone an MR. I've never put mine in a hedge or anything of the sort [knock on wood] and I'd go as far to say I rather enjoy its behavior in the wet.
I have a rev3 N/A, and I find the power to be quite reasonable in it, I'd probably go for the V6 swap rather than the turbo though as I just feel the car just suits N/A more, perhaps as you found.
I can almost guarantee it will rain in Wales... Especially if you've bought a car with a removable roof... Having said that I'm sure you're aware there's plenty of fun to be had exiting a corner mildly sideways then powering on early so that the back end sits down nicely.
Going back to the OP:
I personally find the 2 to be better suited to winding A roads. Single track roadways require a lot of skill and road knowledge to go down with any real gusto, as you need to react that much earlier to turn in smoothly, which can be difficult.
If you do go down the MR-2 road, I wouldn't rush into upgrading the suspension the standard setup is pretty good and it's quite easy to make it worse if you don't get it set up right, or just go down the cheap route of getting some springs. Maybe it's something that's more necessary with the GT4 or the 200SX.
As always, drive as many as you can before you buy one. Drive more than one example if you are able to, that way you can get a feel for a good car as opposed to a doggy car.
One thing that I haven't figured is that you will be going for the ST205 right?
Basically you have narrowed it down to the two opposite cars haha - The GT4 will be much easier to drive and generally better behaved most of the time. Wheras the 2 will spend most of its time keeping you on your toes.
I'd urge you not to discount the MR-2 solely for it having a bit of a reputation mind, if it's not your thing fair enough, but previous to my ownership I had never owned a RWD car, let alone an MR. I've never put mine in a hedge or anything of the sort [knock on wood] and I'd go as far to say I rather enjoy its behavior in the wet.
Edited by Tib on Friday 27th April 17:09
Mehdi said:
I am planning on upgrading the suspension in the form of Coilovers or Bilsteins & Eibach springs
I've *removed* coilovers from my two S13s, both sets made the cars horribly crashy on the road - terribly uncomfortable, hard to feel the grip, and much worse traction. I would choose very carefully if you get coilovers - I believe there are good options out there, but there are a lot of cheap offerings entirely inadequate to the challenge of british B-roads. The standard SX springs are a bit soft, and leave an ugly arch gap, but they aren't that bad with good alignment.Mehdi said:
-S14 RWD but not too tail happy (unless a welded diff) good overall medium car for a daily driver and future track use. but the engine bills can be quite large?
I suspect that the Toyotas and Skyline are similarly vulnerable to how well they've been looked after.
For me it would come down to which layout you want to have - FR, MR or 4WD - I guess each car you mention is a good example of its genre. (And this is why I love Japanese cars, cos there's so much mechanical diversity, properly engineered with decent power, for affordable prices).
Samoht, its because of what you mention economy, power, reliability. The reasons why I'm looking to replace the current Ford zetec setup in my TVR vixen, with the SR20DET engine. I was considering going the turbimo route on the zetec. But it appears to be too much expense and faffing.
D
D
@Samoht, sounds like you bought some ebay coilovers of the dampers were leaking. Coilovers, like most things in life need a lot of cash spending on them, £500 ish (or less) coilies will be crashy and horrible, possibly OK ish on the track but not for long, realistically if you can't budget for £700 to a grand on coilovers then you probably don't actually need them, want them enough or drive in a way that exposes stock kit for its weaknesses in my opinion, not having a go at all but I've seen loads of people go out and buy crap kit and then rubbish all kit because of their experiences. I've had Spax RSX, BC racing and Tein Coilovers on S14s and other cars and all were great and not at all crashy, harder yes but thats the name of the game.
@ the OP: Drive them all mate, see which you fall in love with, personally I'd get an R33 or a decent S14a. If you want a bit of extra leverage then have a look at the owners clubs.. The Toyota ones can be a bit... err strange, SXOC and skylineowners are much more inviting and helpful.
@ the OP: Drive them all mate, see which you fall in love with, personally I'd get an R33 or a decent S14a. If you want a bit of extra leverage then have a look at the owners clubs.. The Toyota ones can be a bit... err strange, SXOC and skylineowners are much more inviting and helpful.
M@1975 said:
The Toyota ones can be a bit... err strange, Cerberus, the three headed dog who guards the gates to the underworld is much more inviting...
I can't speak for the GT-4 one, but one of the MR-2 owners clubs is umm. Somewhat of a closed book. Edited by Tib on Monday 30th April 16:46
[quote=Tib]
I can't speak for the GT-4 one, but one of the MR-2 owners clubs is umm. Somewhat of a closed book. [quote]
LOL, yeah, the GT4OC is the same mate, £30 joining fee even if you want to have a look at the classifieds to buy a car. Funny bunch of people, not an owners club I'd rush back to join!
I can't speak for the GT-4 one, but one of the MR-2 owners clubs is umm. Somewhat of a closed book. [quote]
LOL, yeah, the GT4OC is the same mate, £30 joining fee even if you want to have a look at the classifieds to buy a car. Funny bunch of people, not an owners club I'd rush back to join!
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