A pension question
Discussion
Many millions of people have bought a private pension plan from a big financial institution via a pension salesman of one kind or another over the decades that such things have been available to buy.
Many people have got fed up and stopped contributing to them. And many more (as is obvious from the many comments available to see online) have been everything from pretty disappointed to downright angry at the results these pension plans have produced.
But my question is.......in the entire history of these things has anyone anywhere ever been delighted with the end result of their private pension plan? Y'know what I mean. Is there - anywhere on the planet - someone like the guy on the pension brochure cover. A retired fit smiling silver fox jogging along the palm-fringed white sands of a sub-tropical beach paradise hand in hand with a laughing still-blond slim 60-something beauty whilst their yacht sits idling on the still blue waters of the beautiful lagoon they're sojourning in during this idyllic retirement ...all paid for by the product of the assets contained within the wrapper known as a 'private pension plan'?
Is there even ONE SINGLE REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of this? Even ONE?
(or, lowering the bar a little, is there even a fat bald ugly old wrinkly with his wizened harridan witchwife who is at least living-it-large in retirement on the proceeds of the private plan he bought?)
Many people have got fed up and stopped contributing to them. And many more (as is obvious from the many comments available to see online) have been everything from pretty disappointed to downright angry at the results these pension plans have produced.
But my question is.......in the entire history of these things has anyone anywhere ever been delighted with the end result of their private pension plan? Y'know what I mean. Is there - anywhere on the planet - someone like the guy on the pension brochure cover. A retired fit smiling silver fox jogging along the palm-fringed white sands of a sub-tropical beach paradise hand in hand with a laughing still-blond slim 60-something beauty whilst their yacht sits idling on the still blue waters of the beautiful lagoon they're sojourning in during this idyllic retirement ...all paid for by the product of the assets contained within the wrapper known as a 'private pension plan'?
Is there even ONE SINGLE REAL WORLD EXAMPLE of this? Even ONE?
(or, lowering the bar a little, is there even a fat bald ugly old wrinkly with his wizened harridan witchwife who is at least living-it-large in retirement on the proceeds of the private plan he bought?)
fandango_c said:
Out of interest Groak, how do you suggest that someone could provide income for their retirement other than a pension?
Well, the state gives you one of those anyway, so what's the point in the question? It's a meaningless question which to be made meaningful would require a heap of data on the 'someone' you are talking about.For example, I think I could personally get by on the state pension without any problem. Thus I wouldn't need to provide any further retirement income.
Of course, another someone might need a couple of hundred million a year to provide for their comfy retirement.
There are a lot of different 'someones'.
The question's pointless.
groak said:
fandango_c said:
Out of interest Groak, how do you suggest that someone could provide income for their retirement other than a pension?
Well, the state gives you one of those anyway, so what's the point in the question? It's a meaningless question which to be made meaningful would require a heap of data on the 'someone' you are talking about.For example, I think I could personally get by on the state pension without any problem. Thus I wouldn't need to provide any further retirement income.
Of course, another someone might need a couple of hundred million a year to provide for their comfy retirement.
There are a lot of different 'someones'.
The question's pointless.
The question is a unspecific one and far from pointless.
Are you unable to answer or just don't want to? Perhaps you don't like the answer!
fandango_c said:
groak said:
fandango_c said:
Out of interest Groak, how do you suggest that someone could provide income for their retirement other than a pension?
Well, the state gives you one of those anyway, so what's the point in the question? It's a meaningless question which to be made meaningful would require a heap of data on the 'someone' you are talking about.For example, I think I could personally get by on the state pension without any problem. Thus I wouldn't need to provide any further retirement income.
Of course, another someone might need a couple of hundred million a year to provide for their comfy retirement.
There are a lot of different 'someones'.
The question's pointless.
The question is a unspecific one and far from pointless.
Are you unable to answer or just don't want to? Perhaps you don't like the answer!
My missus hasn't worked for years and probably won't work again, so is to all intents and purposes 'retired from work', although she's still a good decade away from state pension age. It suits my strategy for her to have an income from the rental of motor vehicles as private hire taxis, and she also has income from property she owns.
Her widowed mother hasn't worked for years either. She gets the state pension. The missus talks to her every day, and if she needs anything the missus sorts it. She never asks for anything, but wants for nothing as the missus and her brother make sure she's sorted, and will till she dies.
Keith Richards gets the state pension. He's also decided to spend his retirement working at least part time. He'll have massive annual writing and recording royalties and lots of other income streams from his lifetime's work coming in, so if he chooses to fully retire it'll be largely irrelevant whether or not he has a pension.
And so millions of people no longer in full time or even part time work find millions of different ways of generating income in their retirement.
One massive assumption is that everybody is interested in retiring at all. Loads of people do things they love, often alongside people they like. Not just rockstars and football managers like Fergie either. Sure it's nice to get a break now and then, but extended breaks can quickly become boring, so there are plenty of folk who'll never retire.
The reason your question is pointless is because there are too many permutations of 'someone'. But they're all out there right now surviving in retirement in a million different ways. I think a lot of them do alright on the £140 a week the state pays, or the £217 if you're a couple. Chuck in a bit of Housing Benefit and CT rebate etc, and life's not too bad at all, is it?
Personally I couldn't care less what income I'll have if I ever retire. I suppose it'll depend on the kind of life I want to live. And that could be anything from a wandering ascetic life in the North Indian Himalaya (requiring zero income), or something elaborate and expensive on some Mediterranean coastline. Who knows. Who cares. It's all vanity (in the sense of futility) anyway. And sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, so why build a long tomorrow when you really don't know if you'll be alive next week?
The muslims have a word 'Inshallah'. Or if you want an explanation closer to home of how to survive in retirement, read Ecclesiastes. It was written by one of the world's richest ever men, if not THE richest. And all he ever asked for was Wisdom.
groak said:
Look out of the window at the people of the world passing by. See how many of them have reached or passed retirement age. Many ARE retired. Many of those ones don't have a pension other than the state pension. Yet somehow there is sufficient provision of income for them. Perhaps the state pension IS sufficient, otherwise how else are they surviving? And for those for whom it ISN'T sufficient, why don't you ask them how they provide the income they require? There are endless possibilities.
My missus hasn't worked for years and probably won't work again, so is to all intents and purposes 'retired from work', although she's still a good decade away from state pension age. It suits my strategy for her to have an income from the rental of motor vehicles as private hire taxis, and she also has income from property she owns.
Her widowed mother hasn't worked for years either. She gets the state pension. The missus talks to her every day, and if she needs anything the missus sorts it. She never asks for anything, but wants for nothing as the missus and her brother make sure she's sorted, and will till she dies.
Keith Richards gets the state pension. He's also decided to spend his retirement working at least part time. He'll have massive annual writing and recording royalties and lots of other income streams from his lifetime's work coming in, so if he chooses to fully retire it'll be largely irrelevant whether or not he has a pension.
And so millions of people no longer in full time or even part time work find millions of different ways of generating income in their retirement.
One massive assumption is that everybody is interested in retiring at all. Loads of people do things they love, often alongside people they like. Not just rockstars and football managers like Fergie either. Sure it's nice to get a break now and then, but extended breaks can quickly become boring, so there are plenty of folk who'll never retire.
The reason your question is pointless is because there are too many permutations of 'someone'. But they're all out there right now surviving in retirement in a million different ways. I think a lot of them do alright on the £140 a week the state pays, or the £217 if you're a couple. Chuck in a bit of Housing Benefit and CT rebate etc, and life's not too bad at all, is it?
Personally I couldn't care less what income I'll have if I ever retire. I suppose it'll depend on the kind of life I want to live. And that could be anything from a wandering ascetic life in the North Indian Himalaya (requiring zero income), or something elaborate and expensive on some Mediterranean coastline. Who knows. Who cares. It's all vanity (in the sense of futility) anyway. And sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, so why build a long tomorrow when you really don't know if you'll be alive next week?
The muslims have a word 'Inshallah'. Or if you want an explanation closer to home of how to survive in retirement, read Ecclesiastes. It was written by one of the world's richest ever men, if not THE richest. And all he ever asked for was Wisdom.
That's not a bad attempt at an answer even if you think the question's pointless!My missus hasn't worked for years and probably won't work again, so is to all intents and purposes 'retired from work', although she's still a good decade away from state pension age. It suits my strategy for her to have an income from the rental of motor vehicles as private hire taxis, and she also has income from property she owns.
Her widowed mother hasn't worked for years either. She gets the state pension. The missus talks to her every day, and if she needs anything the missus sorts it. She never asks for anything, but wants for nothing as the missus and her brother make sure she's sorted, and will till she dies.
Keith Richards gets the state pension. He's also decided to spend his retirement working at least part time. He'll have massive annual writing and recording royalties and lots of other income streams from his lifetime's work coming in, so if he chooses to fully retire it'll be largely irrelevant whether or not he has a pension.
And so millions of people no longer in full time or even part time work find millions of different ways of generating income in their retirement.
One massive assumption is that everybody is interested in retiring at all. Loads of people do things they love, often alongside people they like. Not just rockstars and football managers like Fergie either. Sure it's nice to get a break now and then, but extended breaks can quickly become boring, so there are plenty of folk who'll never retire.
The reason your question is pointless is because there are too many permutations of 'someone'. But they're all out there right now surviving in retirement in a million different ways. I think a lot of them do alright on the £140 a week the state pays, or the £217 if you're a couple. Chuck in a bit of Housing Benefit and CT rebate etc, and life's not too bad at all, is it?
Personally I couldn't care less what income I'll have if I ever retire. I suppose it'll depend on the kind of life I want to live. And that could be anything from a wandering ascetic life in the North Indian Himalaya (requiring zero income), or something elaborate and expensive on some Mediterranean coastline. Who knows. Who cares. It's all vanity (in the sense of futility) anyway. And sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, so why build a long tomorrow when you really don't know if you'll be alive next week?
The muslims have a word 'Inshallah'. Or if you want an explanation closer to home of how to survive in retirement, read Ecclesiastes. It was written by one of the world's richest ever men, if not THE richest. And all he ever asked for was Wisdom.
As you have mentioned, relying on your kids, part time job, royalties and income from property are all ways of providing income in retirement.
These options may not be desirable or possible for some people.
Another option is to save/invest money prior to retirement and use that to provide income whether through a traditional pension or alternative method.
fandango_c said:
Another option is to save/invest money prior to retirement and use that to provide income whether through a traditional pension or alternative method.
Yes we all accept that. In theory. But in practice, apart from people who are good self-investors, or who are in heavily company funded schemes, or are in very privileged positions (eg Fred Goodwin etc), the Joe Public 'signup, keep contributing, and collect one day in the long distant future' style of pension-planning has FAILED. Not least because of the pretty blatant mismanagement and/or incompetence of the institutions handling the schemes.So back to the original question. Who do you know who's ever managed to live it large on the proceeds of a typical private pension plan? I'll tell you the answer. Nobody.
Edited by groak on Saturday 21st April 02:52
I read in a newspaper the other day that there is twice as much personal contributions going into ISA's than there is into pension arrangements.
Pensions need to be made a hell of a lot more flexible in the way benefits can be taken to make them more attractive. Subject to tax being paid on the pension (because contributions are tax free going in) I fail to see why there should be any restriction on how much pension you can take. It should be the same as any other savings you may have, that you can choose to take as you need or desire.
Pensions need to be made a hell of a lot more flexible in the way benefits can be taken to make them more attractive. Subject to tax being paid on the pension (because contributions are tax free going in) I fail to see why there should be any restriction on how much pension you can take. It should be the same as any other savings you may have, that you can choose to take as you need or desire.
Really? Do you? We're talking private personal pensions here. And you claim some financial knowledge and perhaps some as yet unproved actual expertise as well. So humour a poor troll. Tell the audience the average size of the fund used to buy a pension annuity in 2011.....and also, of course, what that average fund's purchased annuity actually produces.
Go on. Make me laugh.
Go on. Make me laugh.
groak said:
Really? Do you? We're talking private personal pensions here. And you claim some financial knowledge and perhaps some as yet unproved actual expertise as well. So humour a poor troll. Tell the audience the average size of the fund used to buy a pension annuity in 2011.....and also, of course, what that average fund's purchased annuity actually produces.
Go on. Make me laugh.
The average pension fund is a function of contributions paid in and investment performance, based on the chosen investment strategy.Go on. Make me laugh.
The annuity rates are a function of interest rates and longevity.
Remind me what current risk free rates are.....
sidicks
groak said:
Well? 2011's average annuity purchasing fund size please
I neither know, nor care.groak said:
...and what it brought to the purchaser....
We've already discussed that the annuity rate for a 65 year old is around 6.5%.I'm still waiting for your answer to how you'd invest assets to back annuity business.
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