Protein Shakes Dont Really Help - Discuss!!
Discussion
On Radio 4 this afternoon there was a medical program that talked about Protein Shakes and whether they were any good.
Basically if you want to build muscle and youre expecting miracle results then you're going to be disappointed. The only thing that will do that is the amount of training you put in.
As to using it for recovery after exercise there is some benefit but there is just as much benefit from drinking milk!
You can listen to the program here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gg7gq its the last ten minutes of the program.
Basically if you want to build muscle and youre expecting miracle results then you're going to be disappointed. The only thing that will do that is the amount of training you put in.
As to using it for recovery after exercise there is some benefit but there is just as much benefit from drinking milk!
You can listen to the program here http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01gg7gq its the last ten minutes of the program.
Anthony Micallef said:
Basically if you want to build muscle and youre expecting miracle results then you're going to be disappointed. The only thing that will do that is the amount of training you put in.
Which is pretty much the first thing anyone will tell you when you start lifting weights. I don't know anyone that thinks they'll get massive becase of the protein shakes they use, it's simply a convenient way to get the amount of protein they need! They taste damn good as well!
Protein shakes are used for recovery, that's how you build muscle. They aid in the repair and the strengthening of muscles.
Milk isn't just as good unless you drink a gallon of the stuff. Protein shakes offer high protein/low carbs in an easy format.
They are an aid to a good routine not the basis of one.
Oh and I haven't listened to the article btw.
Milk isn't just as good unless you drink a gallon of the stuff. Protein shakes offer high protein/low carbs in an easy format.
They are an aid to a good routine not the basis of one.
Oh and I haven't listened to the article btw.
Caesar9 said:
Protein shakes are used for recovery, that's how you build muscle. They aid in the repair and the strengthening of muscles.
Milk isn't just as good unless you drink a gallon of the stuff. Protein shakes offer high protein/low carbs in an easy format.
They are an aid to a good routine not the basis of one.
Oh and I haven't listened to the article btw.
The medical science seems to suggest you only need a pint of milk (not a gallon!) Milk isn't just as good unless you drink a gallon of the stuff. Protein shakes offer high protein/low carbs in an easy format.
They are an aid to a good routine not the basis of one.
Oh and I haven't listened to the article btw.
GBDG said:
Wtf? You/they seem to have totally the wrong idea about what protein shakes are for.
They help you hit macros by being high in protein while being low in carbs & fat. It's also cheaper than always eating lean meat. It's not steroids or anything else, only good tp help with macros.
Im only saying what the program said, i have no view one way or the other really. Can you explain what macros are other than something in an spreadsheet?They help you hit macros by being high in protein while being low in carbs & fat. It's also cheaper than always eating lean meat. It's not steroids or anything else, only good tp help with macros.
You have around 30g of protein in your average protein shake and around half of that in a pint of milk. I can't see how milk can be as good in the same quantities imo.
I have read fairly often that your body can only absorb and use around 20g of protein in a single serving so I suppose protein shakes are overcompensating there.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember protein from milk is predominately casien so it is released over a much longer period than whey protein which most protein shakes are made of, hence they are used immediately after a workout as that's when your body needs it the most.
I agree that milk is better than taking nothing at all though and many people do seem to expect miracles when taking it.
I have read fairly often that your body can only absorb and use around 20g of protein in a single serving so I suppose protein shakes are overcompensating there.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember protein from milk is predominately casien so it is released over a much longer period than whey protein which most protein shakes are made of, hence they are used immediately after a workout as that's when your body needs it the most.
I agree that milk is better than taking nothing at all though and many people do seem to expect miracles when taking it.
Anthony Micallef said:
Im only saying what the program said, i have no view one way or the other really. Can you explain what macros are other than something in an spreadsheet?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_macronutrientsShort for macronutrients
Milk & eggs are the only complete proteins, so better than whey shakes. But isn't a pint of milk about 50p? So not vastly cheaper than a shake, and loads more fat, carbs, sugar and calories.
They should have a poster saying that on the gym doors and that creatine is not a steroid. It's just the building blocks for muscle growth. Muscle is protein so you need a good supply to grow. The rule of thumb is 1g per lean 1 lb of bodyweight. Chicken is about 21g protein for 100g weight so a 75kg guy at 10%bf needs 148g of protein a day or about 700g of chicken. That chicken would be about 812 kcal. That is expensive and a pain in the ass to cook and eat when you could just down a few shakes and have normal meals.
Milk is 3.6g protein per 100ml so 41 servings of that adding up to over 2000kcal so pretty much all your food that day. I wouldn't fancy that much and it would be very difficult to cut on. It isn't a world away from the macro's though if semi skimmed. Macro's are protein, carb, fat content. Rule of thumb is 40/40/20 in that order.
Milk is 3.6g protein per 100ml so 41 servings of that adding up to over 2000kcal so pretty much all your food that day. I wouldn't fancy that much and it would be very difficult to cut on. It isn't a world away from the macro's though if semi skimmed. Macro's are protein, carb, fat content. Rule of thumb is 40/40/20 in that order.
Caesar9 said:
You have around 30g of protein in your average protein shake and around half of that in a pint of milk. I can't see how milk can be as good in the same quantities imo.
I have read fairly often that your body can only absorb and use around 20g of protein in a single serving so I suppose protein shakes are overcompensating there.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember protein from milk is predominately casien so it is released over a much longer period than whey protein which most protein shakes are made of, hence they are used immediately after a workout as that's when your body needs it the most.
I agree that milk is better than taking nothing at all though and many people do seem to expect miracles when taking it.
The 20g uptake thing is a complete myth.I have read fairly often that your body can only absorb and use around 20g of protein in a single serving so I suppose protein shakes are overcompensating there.
I may be wrong but I seem to remember protein from milk is predominately casien so it is released over a much longer period than whey protein which most protein shakes are made of, hence they are used immediately after a workout as that's when your body needs it the most.
I agree that milk is better than taking nothing at all though and many people do seem to expect miracles when taking it.
If you think about it logically do you think a 20 stone weight lifter needs the same protein as a 9 stone man? Not likely.
Saying milk is as good as protein is saying the person does not understand the subject and different applications of both.
I think it was more related to the human body not being able to absorb more than 20g in one go not spread out through the day although I concede it may a load of b
ks I just remember reading/hearing it a fair few times.
I currently train without taking protein shakes etc and I can definitely tell it takes alot longer to progress than it used to. Creatine seemed to be the best supplement for me but that's a different subject altogether.
ks I just remember reading/hearing it a fair few times.I currently train without taking protein shakes etc and I can definitely tell it takes alot longer to progress than it used to. Creatine seemed to be the best supplement for me but that's a different subject altogether.
Solid food come first.... Protein supplements are exactly that.... Supplements!
Are quick, cheap and easy way to up protein intake and can help recovery taken post workout. If you expect miracles by simply taking a couple of shakes a day then you have fallen for the marketing.
I use supps btw
Are quick, cheap and easy way to up protein intake and can help recovery taken post workout. If you expect miracles by simply taking a couple of shakes a day then you have fallen for the marketing.
I use supps btw
My two pence...
Those saying that the benfit of protein shakes is that they are low fat/low carb but high protein supplements, which is what you want post training are unfortunatly wrong. Drinking a few scoops of low carb shake mixed with water really isn't beneficial for recovery. You need those carbs to recover and whey on it's own isn't the best.
There is also evidence to suggest that whey protein is not as beneficial as complete milk protein (whey+casein) and that there are actual negative effects from using whey on it's own.
The issue with milk is that it's less convinent, and downing a pint of the stuff isn't always that pleasent. Chocolate milk on the other hand is very tasty, and you have added benefit from the carbs! This has been proven to be a very effeicient recovery drink.
To say that "protein shakes don't work" is a little misleading, as they do when used correctly and they are more convinient than a pint of milk, but they are often sold in such a way as that they will not be particualry beneficial for the taker, i.e. low fat/low carb mixed with water.
Personally, I have a small scoop of unflavoured whey, mixed with about half a pint of milk and three tea spoons of chocolate nesquick. Lovely, and perfect carb
rotein ratio.
Those saying that the benfit of protein shakes is that they are low fat/low carb but high protein supplements, which is what you want post training are unfortunatly wrong. Drinking a few scoops of low carb shake mixed with water really isn't beneficial for recovery. You need those carbs to recover and whey on it's own isn't the best.
There is also evidence to suggest that whey protein is not as beneficial as complete milk protein (whey+casein) and that there are actual negative effects from using whey on it's own.
The issue with milk is that it's less convinent, and downing a pint of the stuff isn't always that pleasent. Chocolate milk on the other hand is very tasty, and you have added benefit from the carbs! This has been proven to be a very effeicient recovery drink.
To say that "protein shakes don't work" is a little misleading, as they do when used correctly and they are more convinient than a pint of milk, but they are often sold in such a way as that they will not be particualry beneficial for the taker, i.e. low fat/low carb mixed with water.
Personally, I have a small scoop of unflavoured whey, mixed with about half a pint of milk and three tea spoons of chocolate nesquick. Lovely, and perfect carb
rotein ratio.Thank you for your post 
I have just bought some of this http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/recovery_xs do you think it has enough carbs?
I have just bought some of this http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/recovery_xs do you think it has enough carbs?Anthony Micallef said:
Thank you for your post I have just bought some of this http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/recovery_xs do you think it has enough carbs?
I think I've used recovery XS before and it's pretty well set up. Generally a 4:1 (carbo: Protein) is suggested, but anything close will be good. I have just bought some of this http://www.myprotein.com/uk/products/recovery_xs do you think it has enough carbs?Nah, Whey protein shakes work. I've seen the benefical effects too often.
But it's not just what you eat, it's when you eat.
Going by my classically trained science (by ACSM who in turn advise just about everyone else like the WHO, so it's about as offical as you get) muscle gain is all about stopping catabolism - the opposite of metabolism. After any hard exercise your body goes into a state of catabolism as it attempts to breakdown parts of your body to recover energy - it's a kind of state of emergency and lasts about an hour as your body attempts to get back into hormesis (balance) again, as it never knows when the next fight or flight moment may happen.
The best way to avoid catabolism is to flood your system with protein. Unfortunately the bodies response to exercise is to shut down your digestive system and divert blood to your muscles and respiratory system - called blood shunting, the exercise response and the anticipatory rise. While in this state you can't digest food, so you can't flood your system with protein AND exercise.
So the best you can do is to eat the fastest digesting protein there is - Whey. Whey is digested at a rate of 10g per hour. (Caesin at 6g per hour. Egg at 3g per hour). But the best way to eat whey is in it's purest form - isolate - because if it's mixed with any fats or other proteins (like in cheese or milk), you slow the digestive process down hugely. Sadly your body doesn't know it needs protein, so it doesn't really cave it and it reaches your muscles at a regular leisurely pace. However, your muscles need sugary carbs and creatine asap and your body knows this. So if you have some of this with your Whey, it reduces catabolism (because your body is getting the sugars it wants to top up your glycogen) and also allows the protein to "ride the wave" of this glucose straight into your muscles.
This is why many/all whey supplements are mixed with some amount of monosaccharide - simple sugar.
This 1 hour window of catabolism and 1 hour digestion rate of 10g of Whey is called the "golden hour" as I'm sure most of you have heard of.
Also you can only digest 34.5g of protein per meal, which is why 1 scoop of supplement tends to be less than 34.5g of protein.
So all that ^ is the "official" science.
I've had many an argument with a lecturer about why a 100kg guy can only digest 34.5g and why a 50Kg woman would also only be able to digest 34.5g of protein in one go... etc. etc. so there's certain to be loads of grey areas and no doubt this is the true basis for the radio programme, which I will listen to in a minute...
As for milk. It's THE wonder food for mamals. There's a reason why mothers feed it to young from birth - it's to grow, fast.
If you were after my advice - I say a pint of semi-skimmed milk about 30 mins or so before the gym and a serving of a good Whey protein supplement less than 30 mins after the gym. Have a good normal high protein diet (1.8 - 2.2g of protein per Kg of body weight) the rest of the time with about 3g of omega 3 fats as well - Omega 3 being involved in the apparently little understood mitochondron redistribution process that is also essential for muscle growth.
But it's not just what you eat, it's when you eat.
Going by my classically trained science (by ACSM who in turn advise just about everyone else like the WHO, so it's about as offical as you get) muscle gain is all about stopping catabolism - the opposite of metabolism. After any hard exercise your body goes into a state of catabolism as it attempts to breakdown parts of your body to recover energy - it's a kind of state of emergency and lasts about an hour as your body attempts to get back into hormesis (balance) again, as it never knows when the next fight or flight moment may happen.
The best way to avoid catabolism is to flood your system with protein. Unfortunately the bodies response to exercise is to shut down your digestive system and divert blood to your muscles and respiratory system - called blood shunting, the exercise response and the anticipatory rise. While in this state you can't digest food, so you can't flood your system with protein AND exercise.
So the best you can do is to eat the fastest digesting protein there is - Whey. Whey is digested at a rate of 10g per hour. (Caesin at 6g per hour. Egg at 3g per hour). But the best way to eat whey is in it's purest form - isolate - because if it's mixed with any fats or other proteins (like in cheese or milk), you slow the digestive process down hugely. Sadly your body doesn't know it needs protein, so it doesn't really cave it and it reaches your muscles at a regular leisurely pace. However, your muscles need sugary carbs and creatine asap and your body knows this. So if you have some of this with your Whey, it reduces catabolism (because your body is getting the sugars it wants to top up your glycogen) and also allows the protein to "ride the wave" of this glucose straight into your muscles.
This is why many/all whey supplements are mixed with some amount of monosaccharide - simple sugar.
This 1 hour window of catabolism and 1 hour digestion rate of 10g of Whey is called the "golden hour" as I'm sure most of you have heard of.
Also you can only digest 34.5g of protein per meal, which is why 1 scoop of supplement tends to be less than 34.5g of protein.
So all that ^ is the "official" science.
I've had many an argument with a lecturer about why a 100kg guy can only digest 34.5g and why a 50Kg woman would also only be able to digest 34.5g of protein in one go... etc. etc. so there's certain to be loads of grey areas and no doubt this is the true basis for the radio programme, which I will listen to in a minute...
As for milk. It's THE wonder food for mamals. There's a reason why mothers feed it to young from birth - it's to grow, fast.
If you were after my advice - I say a pint of semi-skimmed milk about 30 mins or so before the gym and a serving of a good Whey protein supplement less than 30 mins after the gym. Have a good normal high protein diet (1.8 - 2.2g of protein per Kg of body weight) the rest of the time with about 3g of omega 3 fats as well - Omega 3 being involved in the apparently little understood mitochondron redistribution process that is also essential for muscle growth.
Edited by mattikake on Sunday 15th July 13:03
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