Closed back ceiling speakers for ceiling tiles?
Discussion
I need to fit out a building with in ceiling speakers, the snag being that the entire ceiling space will be of the 600mmx600mm square ceiling tile type.
Obviously an infinite baffle design is going to sound s
te in this instance, can anyone recommend a closed back design? Do Monitor Audio do anything handy?
They will be powered by about 40W per channel.
Obviously an infinite baffle design is going to sound s
te in this instance, can anyone recommend a closed back design? Do Monitor Audio do anything handy?They will be powered by about 40W per channel.
KEF do quite a few flush ceiling/wall speakers that quite a lot of people rave about by the reviews on t'interweb but I'm not sure if they are enclosed. I think you can buy the enclosures for them though to stop sound leakage.
The following website has quite a lot of designs (Monitor Audio/KEF etc) and lists whether they are closed or open.
http://www.ceiling-speakers.co.uk/search.asp
The following website has quite a lot of designs (Monitor Audio/KEF etc) and lists whether they are closed or open.
http://www.ceiling-speakers.co.uk/search.asp
Edited by 14-7 on Tuesday 1st May 16:49
Thanks for that guys, I've heard that Kef is good stuff (would love a pair of their Blade floorstanders).
I can't find any closed backed ones on their site though but done some more searching and found that the MA CPC range are all closed backed and they have a variety of qualities/prices.
Now just have to decide whether a drop ceiling tile can handle 2.5Kg or whether it might be useful to make some MDF drop-ins.
I can't find any closed backed ones on their site though but done some more searching and found that the MA CPC range are all closed backed and they have a variety of qualities/prices.
Now just have to decide whether a drop ceiling tile can handle 2.5Kg or whether it might be useful to make some MDF drop-ins.
MA have discontinued the closed back models (called CP or Controlled Performance) due to manufacturing problems.
B&W offer steel back cans for their speakers which would work very well.
Do you need to prevent sound travelling to different areas, as infinite baffle speakers generally sound fine in tiles providing they're all on in the same area at the same time of that makes sense?
B&W offer steel back cans for their speakers which would work very well.
Do you need to prevent sound travelling to different areas, as infinite baffle speakers generally sound fine in tiles providing they're all on in the same area at the same time of that makes sense?
You'll be surprissed how good ceiling speakers sound without back boxes, in my experience, admittedly with more commercial 100v ceiling speakers, fitting back cans/fire domes noticeable decreases the low end response of the speakers. Because of this I only fit back cans when the fire regs demand.
cjs said:
You'll be surprissed how good ceiling speakers sound without back boxes, in my experience, admittedly with more commercial 100v ceiling speakers, fitting back cans/fire domes noticeable decreases the low end response of the speakers. Because of this I only fit back cans when the fire regs demand.
Very true. In my house I fitted back boxes to the ceiling speakers below bedrooms and there is significantly less low frequency output that the rooms where the speakers are open at the back.Thanks for the info guys.
When you say you futurs ceiling speakers in your house I presume that was in a "normal" plasterboard ceiling and so effectively a sealed unit?
This is my place of work and will have grid style suspended ceilings with 600x600mm tiles. Obviously as the tiles are floating the system is not closed hence the idea of using a closed backed speaker.
My understanding is that with such an open system an infinite baffle design of speaker will lack depth (although I won't be blasting out Motörhead at work!)
Too bad about MA not making the CP line anymore, they looked perfect. Any idea if the manufacturing problems were just a factory thing or if they had problems with the actual speakers?
When you say you futurs ceiling speakers in your house I presume that was in a "normal" plasterboard ceiling and so effectively a sealed unit?
This is my place of work and will have grid style suspended ceilings with 600x600mm tiles. Obviously as the tiles are floating the system is not closed hence the idea of using a closed backed speaker.
My understanding is that with such an open system an infinite baffle design of speaker will lack depth (although I won't be blasting out Motörhead at work!)
Too bad about MA not making the CP line anymore, they looked perfect. Any idea if the manufacturing problems were just a factory thing or if they had problems with the actual speakers?
Installing them in 600 x 600 tiles will work fine - although technically not as well sealed as in a plasterboard ceiling, the main purpose of the baffle (or tile in this instance) is to prevent the sound waves from the rear of the speaker cancelling out the waves from the front, so the tiles will prevent this hence them working fine.
The only isse would be in say a partitioned space where the partitions only go up to the tiles rather than the slab above, as the sound will travel into the other areas through the ceiling void. If it's just one big space, then it will work perfectly fine (and very probably sound better than a closed back unit de to the lack of bass they often give).
How big a space is it, how many speakers are you planning to fit and what is the aim of the exercise. Give me some more info and I'll suggest some products for you.
The MA thing was just a factory issue as I believe the factory they used was closing down and they didn't sell enough speakers to justify the investment in a new one.
These are a good solution if you do need to retrofit a back box albeit a little pricey (£120 each ish)
http://dynabox.co.uk/
The only isse would be in say a partitioned space where the partitions only go up to the tiles rather than the slab above, as the sound will travel into the other areas through the ceiling void. If it's just one big space, then it will work perfectly fine (and very probably sound better than a closed back unit de to the lack of bass they often give).
How big a space is it, how many speakers are you planning to fit and what is the aim of the exercise. Give me some more info and I'll suggest some products for you.
The MA thing was just a factory issue as I believe the factory they used was closing down and they didn't sell enough speakers to justify the investment in a new one.
These are a good solution if you do need to retrofit a back box albeit a little pricey (£120 each ish)
http://dynabox.co.uk/
All the walls go up to the top of the ceiling void so that's not a problem.
It's a single story building about 100m2 and there will be 2 pairs of mono and probably 4 single stereo speakers.
The aim is to diffuse ambiant, relaxing music to calm potentially nervous people down
Those backboxes look great but as you say pricey, at that cost I would want a radical improvement in sound.
ETA I've looked at some speakers and they are 6Ohms rather than the usual 8. Does this create any potential issues with amps?
It's a single story building about 100m2 and there will be 2 pairs of mono and probably 4 single stereo speakers.
The aim is to diffuse ambiant, relaxing music to calm potentially nervous people down
Those backboxes look great but as you say pricey, at that cost I would want a radical improvement in sound.
ETA I've looked at some speakers and they are 6Ohms rather than the usual 8. Does this create any potential issues with amps?
cjs said:
If it's just for background music then you'll be better off looking at 100v line speakers and appropriate amplifier, they can all be wired on one circuit if you're happy with a mono system or two circuits for stereo.
There are loads of 100v ceiling speakers availabe from £5 upwards.
I've seen this 100V thing before as well as 70V. What's the difference technically between this system and the more common 8Ohm speaker rated at say 10-80W driven by a 40WPC amp?There are loads of 100v ceiling speakers availabe from £5 upwards.
There also seems to be a version of speakers with an "onboard transformer" strangely enough.
TonyRPH said:
Closed back and infinite baffle are the same thing.
My understanding Tony is that infinite baffle is just a larger, sealed enclosure compared to the closed baffle design.Whatever the size of the enclose, I understand an important principle of the design, as mentioned above, is that air from the front and rear of the speaker cannot interact.
My point was that since this is a dropped ceiling with fairly light weight tiles loosely placed, the enclosure is not completely sealed.
High impedance, or '100v line' systems, are used in most of the world, they use 70v in the USA, and sometimes 25v systems are used, but very rarely. The principle is the same though.
Each speaker has a built in transformer, this can be tapped at a preset wattage/impedance, you use a 100v line amp to power these. You can run as many speakers as the amp is capable of powering. e.g. 100w amp can run 10 x speakers tapped at 10w or, 20x speakers tapped at 5w or, 100x speakers tapped at 1w.
All speakers can be run from one circuit, speakers can be added into the circuit at will, as long as you don't exceed the amp capacity. Cable diameter is not so important, you can use simple mains flex.
Most commercial systems, in offices, factories, shops etc use this system.
Negatives. The quality of the music can be affected, frequency range can be less than when using a low impedance system, but for general background music they are fine.
Each speaker has a built in transformer, this can be tapped at a preset wattage/impedance, you use a 100v line amp to power these. You can run as many speakers as the amp is capable of powering. e.g. 100w amp can run 10 x speakers tapped at 10w or, 20x speakers tapped at 5w or, 100x speakers tapped at 1w.
All speakers can be run from one circuit, speakers can be added into the circuit at will, as long as you don't exceed the amp capacity. Cable diameter is not so important, you can use simple mains flex.
Most commercial systems, in offices, factories, shops etc use this system.
Negatives. The quality of the music can be affected, frequency range can be less than when using a low impedance system, but for general background music they are fine.
Edited by cjs on Thursday 3rd May 18:48
TonyRPH said:
Closed back and infinite baffle are the same thing.
Technically yes, but an infinite baffle speaker is designed to work in a sealed enclosure so big (i.e. infinite) that it has no impact on the speaker. A closed back speaker as referenced here has a small sealed enclosure which is designed to contain sound from travelling out of the back of the speaker into rooms above or nearby but which does have a significant impact on the speaker. The usual compromise is a significant drop in bottom end output.Mmm, good idea. I want these for my ensuite: http://www.ceiling-speakers.co.uk/KEF-Ci50R-BRUSHE...
Connect them up to a little amp and an Apple Airport Express and I have wireless music! They’ll match the downlighters as well.
Connect them up to a little amp and an Apple Airport Express and I have wireless music! They’ll match the downlighters as well.
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