Discussion
We've discussed ANPR recently on here and it's been accepted with favour by most members. Just some figures for you to peruse that I've come by:
I'm afraid I don't know how long these figures are for, but here goes:
Total Vehicles Stopped: 123,488
Total arrest from these: 13,410
Fixed Penalties issued 51,280
Street
I'm afraid I don't know how long these figures are for, but here goes:
Total Vehicles Stopped: 123,488
Total arrest from these: 13,410
Fixed Penalties issued 51,280
Street
Streetcop said:I have no problem with ANPR's, and they do seem to be a very useful tool in the fight against crime. Only problem I have, is that they are easily mistaken for scam vans. ( Done it myself once )
We've discussed ANPR recently on here and it's been accepted with favour by most members. Just some figures for you to peruse that I've come by:
I'm afraid I don't know how long these figures are for, but here goes:
Total Vehicles Stopped: 123,488
Total arrest from these: 13,410
Fixed Penalties issued 51,280
Street
Streetcop said:
Aye...not much can be done about that...
I suppose the good thing is if you do slow down because you think it's a Scamvan, you're less likely to get pulled in anyway because one of the coppers thought you were 'tanking it' a bit...
Street
Streetcop.
Are you Scottish ( Aye ),or German ( Gareth Von Helden..whatever ) or is the German thing a wind up
Nice figures.
I read somewhere recently that the recent DVLA crackdown on unlicensed vehicles did not appear to be working, even with all changes and ANPR vans. This surprised me as they seem to be closing various loopholes and catching a lot of people ANPR stylee, not to mention the people getting bills for road tax in the post. In addition, I rarely notice an untaxed vehicle now, whereas 1-2 years ago I saw them everywhere.
One backward step IMO - the new tax discs. They are much harder to read unless you're quite close. With the older style it was easier to spot if someone was out of day with a cursory glance.
I read somewhere recently that the recent DVLA crackdown on unlicensed vehicles did not appear to be working, even with all changes and ANPR vans. This surprised me as they seem to be closing various loopholes and catching a lot of people ANPR stylee, not to mention the people getting bills for road tax in the post. In addition, I rarely notice an untaxed vehicle now, whereas 1-2 years ago I saw them everywhere.
One backward step IMO - the new tax discs. They are much harder to read unless you're quite close. With the older style it was easier to spot if someone was out of day with a cursory glance.
The thing I like about the ANPR concept is that it must result in more stops and convictions in cases where the "nose" wouldn't even hint at a twitch.
You know the sort of thing I mean, decent motor but nothing flash, driven reasonably well, normal owner the sort [1] who keeps everything up to date.
[1] Probably has the kitchen calendar annotated a year ahead with dates for tax, insurance, MOT etc. Yes you can take it that is a glimpse of the kitchen in Villa FiF, sad git that I am.
You know the sort of thing I mean, decent motor but nothing flash, driven reasonably well, normal owner the sort [1] who keeps everything up to date.
[1] Probably has the kitchen calendar annotated a year ahead with dates for tax, insurance, MOT etc. Yes you can take it that is a glimpse of the kitchen in Villa FiF, sad git that I am.
I dont like these ANPR schemes.
There is an increasing tendancy for people to believe whatever rubbish comes out of computers.
You don't know a thing about a person from a computer printout, you cannot pigenhole someone from some bits floating around in the ether.
It is just going to be an excuse for the Police to target more people, and if you are innocent or the system makes a mistake, the Police will harrass you all the same - but turn around and blame "the system" for any mistakes.
So once my name is on this system, I can look forward to being harrased everywhere I go ? How do I get my name off the list ?
It is a great tool of political repression, it is simply a digital means to put pink armbands on all the speeders.
There is an increasing tendancy for people to believe whatever rubbish comes out of computers.
You don't know a thing about a person from a computer printout, you cannot pigenhole someone from some bits floating around in the ether.
It is just going to be an excuse for the Police to target more people, and if you are innocent or the system makes a mistake, the Police will harrass you all the same - but turn around and blame "the system" for any mistakes.
So once my name is on this system, I can look forward to being harrased everywhere I go ? How do I get my name off the list ?
It is a great tool of political repression, it is simply a digital means to put pink armbands on all the speeders.
blademan said:
Aye...not much can be done about that...
I suppose the good thing is if you do slow down because you think it's a Scamvan, you're less likely to get pulled in anyway because one of the coppers thought you were 'tanking it' a bit...
Street
Streetcop.
Are you Scottish ( Aye ),or German ( Gareth Von Helden..whatever ) or is the German thing a wind up
Blademan..
I'm English mate...Wife is Scottish....my dog is German...
Street
leosayer said:
Street, what are the main reasons for these arrests and fixed penalties?
Hi mate..
I've not got a true breakdown of the figures, but would imagine the arrests are for the following:
1) disqualified driving
2) vehicle involved in crime and all occupants are then arrested
3) occupants of vehicle wanted on warrant.
as for fixed penalties...I'm struggling a little bit..I would imagine they are for seat belt offences which the Bib spotted as the vehicle made a hit on the ANPR. Also unroadworthiness of the vehicles when stopped..tyres, bodywork etc...
Street
ohopkins said:
I dont like these ANPR schemes.
There is an increasing tendancy for people to believe whatever rubbish comes out of computers.
You don't know a thing about a person from a computer printout, you cannot pigenhole someone from some bits floating around in the ether.
It is just going to be an excuse for the Police to target more people, and if you are innocent or the system makes a mistake, the Police will harrass you all the same - but turn around and blame "the system" for any mistakes.
So once my name is on this system, I can look forward to being harrased everywhere I go ? How do I get my name off the list ?
It is a great tool of political repression, it is simply a digital means to put pink armbands on all the speeders.
If somebody hands your plot in a the police station, I'll give it back to you....
Street
ps: why would your name be on the system...Are you disqualified, involved in crime etc? If not you'll not be on it..
I don't know StreetCop why my name would be on it : from what I have seen however they are far from perfect with matches and do nothing about cloned plates and DVLA mistakes.
Also as it now seems impossible to travel from one side of this country without breaking some law or other, I guess I am now a criminal, and involved with crime.
Say I get stopped at 101mph, ( which is not uncommon on motorways ) Banned for a month, is my name now on the system forever ?
Will I have a future of being pulled over every time I drive past a police car with this turned on ?
Dunno if this has been posted yet but will certainly add to the debate:-
"They have your number"
www.guardian.co.uk/humanrights/story/0,7369,1271120,00.html
"They have your number"
www.guardian.co.uk/humanrights/story/0,7369,1271120,00.html
ohopkins said:
I don't know StreetCop why my name would be on it : from what I have seen however they are far from perfect with matches and do nothing about cloned plates and DVLA mistakes.
Also as it now seems impossible to travel from one side of this country without breaking some law or other, I guess I am now a criminal, and involved with crime.
Say I get stopped at 101mph, ( which is not uncommon on motorways ) Banned for a month, is my name now on the system forever ?
Will I have a future of being pulled over every time I drive past a police car with this turned on ?
You will be on the 'system' if you have a criminal record and you have been stopped in a car. ie: the registration plate of the car will be associated with you. If you are disqualified, the car which you were stopped in when you were drink/driving or regularly using without insurance will also be on. If the cops are especially good the vehicles from your household will also be on the system in case you drive that vehicle...
Nothing to worry about mate...we're the good guys..
Street
I understand if I am banned my name will be on it.
Will it be taken off when my ban expires....or will I be marked as a "criminal" forever ?
I could have been banned several times over if every mistake I ever made I was caught for, there but for the grace of god go I, and I think 90% of the members of this forum could say the same thing.
Let me try this for you :
Despite being completely innoccent, ignoring the ban situation above, I am mistakenly tagged by the system and pulled over.
Can you understand how offensive I find the prospect of being labeled a criminal by the computer, despite doing nothing wrong ?
Can you understand why I would not look forward to protesting my innocence to the BiB : every user of these systems develops a kind of arrogance in the correctness of their data, after all Street when you are manning them 75% of the people of the people you are pulling are criminals.
Can you understand why I would feel my privacy has been invaded when you search my car or arrest me on the say so of these erronneous bits ?
I am not some luddite, I have setup several system for the Police and CPS in Ludgate Street, and several councils, so I know first hand how
ed up the data can get.
I understand the cops are the good guys, I have some suprisingly good encounters with the Police and trust their judgement, its the computer I dont trust and this system puts all the power in the hands of the computer.
It is enough to make you paranoid.
Will it be taken off when my ban expires....or will I be marked as a "criminal" forever ?
I could have been banned several times over if every mistake I ever made I was caught for, there but for the grace of god go I, and I think 90% of the members of this forum could say the same thing.
Let me try this for you :
Despite being completely innoccent, ignoring the ban situation above, I am mistakenly tagged by the system and pulled over.
Can you understand how offensive I find the prospect of being labeled a criminal by the computer, despite doing nothing wrong ?
Can you understand why I would not look forward to protesting my innocence to the BiB : every user of these systems develops a kind of arrogance in the correctness of their data, after all Street when you are manning them 75% of the people of the people you are pulling are criminals.
Can you understand why I would feel my privacy has been invaded when you search my car or arrest me on the say so of these erronneous bits ?
I am not some luddite, I have setup several system for the Police and CPS in Ludgate Street, and several councils, so I know first hand how
ed up the data can get. I understand the cops are the good guys, I have some suprisingly good encounters with the Police and trust their judgement, its the computer I dont trust and this system puts all the power in the hands of the computer.
It is enough to make you paranoid.
It is highly unlikely that an innocent person will be arrested on the basis of what is on "the computer." Primarily, it is information on PNC which flags up. This information can be put on by the DVLA, e.g. for a vehicle which has been shown as scrapped, i.e. V23 submitted, or Notified Off-road, i.e. no VEL in place (also likely to be uninsured etc...) It can also be information markers put on by the Police, e.g. vehilce used in bilkings/other crime, currently driven by a disqual driver etc...
If you ARE innocent, you genuinely have little or nothing to fear. Up until last month, I was a custody sergeant in a very busy urban Police station. In 14 months as a custody sergeant, I booked in approx. 1000 people for quite literally every offence you can think of. Mr. Law-abiding Average-Joe, driving his car, minding his own business was not one of them. ANPR arrests were without fail for disquialified drivers, or people who were committing crime.
The info. on the computer is always backed up by the enquiries the Officer will have made at the scene, when the car is stopped. If the Arresting Officer said to me, "I've arrested him Sarge, because of what was on the computer" and the Officer had made no effort to verify it, believe me, the arrestee would be out the door in a second, and the arresting Officer in for a bollocking.
If you ARE innocent, you genuinely have little or nothing to fear. Up until last month, I was a custody sergeant in a very busy urban Police station. In 14 months as a custody sergeant, I booked in approx. 1000 people for quite literally every offence you can think of. Mr. Law-abiding Average-Joe, driving his car, minding his own business was not one of them. ANPR arrests were without fail for disquialified drivers, or people who were committing crime.
The info. on the computer is always backed up by the enquiries the Officer will have made at the scene, when the car is stopped. If the Arresting Officer said to me, "I've arrested him Sarge, because of what was on the computer" and the Officer had made no effort to verify it, believe me, the arrestee would be out the door in a second, and the arresting Officer in for a bollocking.
Oh I am sure I could sort it *eventually*
Meawhile I am being treated like a criminal on the street.
At the moment, I have to do something to attract the officers attention in order to have a PNC check run on me. So I feel comfortable driving along legally and safely. Now, being legal and safe is no protection from being stopped and harrassed - I have sat in queues in London where this system was being trialed, and it was no fun sitting there thinking "am I going to be pulled out the car and questioned and searched for half an hour ? " despite being 100% sure of my legality.
There is no human element, its policing by robot, and I don't want a robot having power over me.
Suppose the DVLA make a mistake. have you ever tried to sort a mistake out with the DVLA ? It is a complete unmitigated nightmare from start to finish, there is no accountabiliy in the DVLA and the whole orgainisation has developed an arrogant an condensating attittude towards the public.
If am on a list by mistake, I will have to put up with being stopped every week for a month and treated like a criminal while I sort it out. That sounds like fun, and not stressfull at all.
Meawhile I am being treated like a criminal on the street.
At the moment, I have to do something to attract the officers attention in order to have a PNC check run on me. So I feel comfortable driving along legally and safely. Now, being legal and safe is no protection from being stopped and harrassed - I have sat in queues in London where this system was being trialed, and it was no fun sitting there thinking "am I going to be pulled out the car and questioned and searched for half an hour ? " despite being 100% sure of my legality.
There is no human element, its policing by robot, and I don't want a robot having power over me.
Suppose the DVLA make a mistake. have you ever tried to sort a mistake out with the DVLA ? It is a complete unmitigated nightmare from start to finish, there is no accountabiliy in the DVLA and the whole orgainisation has developed an arrogant an condensating attittude towards the public.
If am on a list by mistake, I will have to put up with being stopped every week for a month and treated like a criminal while I sort it out. That sounds like fun, and not stressfull at all.
ohopkins..
Do you ever feel people are watching you as you go about your business?
Do you hear 'clicks' on the telephone when you pick it up?
When you postman delivers your postcard, do you worry he/she might read them?
Calm down....don't worry...
stop being paranoid....you'll only end up 
Your name and details are on all sorts of computers; electoral rolls, power bills, car insurance data, health agencies etc etc
Every day you will be filmed by hundreds of cctv cameras....
Just except it and get on with life, or move to a remote Scottish Island and tend sheep.
Relax mate..Nothing to worry about...
Street
Do you ever feel people are watching you as you go about your business?
Do you hear 'clicks' on the telephone when you pick it up?
When you postman delivers your postcard, do you worry he/she might read them?
Calm down....don't worry... stop being paranoid....you'll only end up Your name and details are on all sorts of computers; electoral rolls, power bills, car insurance data, health agencies etc etc
Every day you will be filmed by hundreds of cctv cameras....
Just except it and get on with life, or move to a remote Scottish Island and tend sheep.
Relax mate..Nothing to worry about...
Street
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