I know I shouldn't but...
Discussion
BBC decided to wheel out the old red light 'story' on breakfast yesterday.
CAN I JUST PUT A WARNING THAT THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO DESCEND INTO AN 'ALL CYCLISTS DO IT AND ALL MOTORISTS SPEED AS WE HAVE ALL SEEN THAT TOO MANY TIMES.
It seemed that the general consensus of those that do (of which I am not one) tend to do it because they are safer getting ahead of the traffic than sitting alongside. I disagree.
Why don't these people just position their bikes in the middle of the lane when they stop at red lights, either at the front or within the queue? That way they can't get right hooked by people turning left and don't have to put themselves in whatever danger the red light is (usually) trying to prevent them from entering.
It is what I do and I have never had any aggro or felt remotely vulnerable when the lights go green, particularly as 95% of the time I will clear a junction from a standing start quicker than a car anyway.
Does anyone have any objection to that and would rather continue to run red lights and if so why? (Please keep on topic to that specific point).
CAN I JUST PUT A WARNING THAT THIS THREAD IS NOT INTENDED TO DESCEND INTO AN 'ALL CYCLISTS DO IT AND ALL MOTORISTS SPEED AS WE HAVE ALL SEEN THAT TOO MANY TIMES.
It seemed that the general consensus of those that do (of which I am not one) tend to do it because they are safer getting ahead of the traffic than sitting alongside. I disagree.
Why don't these people just position their bikes in the middle of the lane when they stop at red lights, either at the front or within the queue? That way they can't get right hooked by people turning left and don't have to put themselves in whatever danger the red light is (usually) trying to prevent them from entering.
It is what I do and I have never had any aggro or felt remotely vulnerable when the lights go green, particularly as 95% of the time I will clear a junction from a standing start quicker than a car anyway.
Does anyone have any objection to that and would rather continue to run red lights and if so why? (Please keep on topic to that specific point).
I don't do it - don't live in London either - but I have read stories that suggested women are much more likely to be killed because they don't (a) jump lights or (b) position themselves assertively. Which of those it is, I don't know.
Another point is that you can be forgotten in front of a lorry. Modern lorries have frontal mirrors to see directly in front of the cab, but IIRC they don't have to be retrofitted. I may be wrong. You can out-accelerate a lorry but not if it starts moving before the lights turn green!
Another point is that you can be forgotten in front of a lorry. Modern lorries have frontal mirrors to see directly in front of the cab, but IIRC they don't have to be retrofitted. I may be wrong. You can out-accelerate a lorry but not if it starts moving before the lights turn green!
trashbat said:
I don't do it - don't live in London either - but I have read stories that suggested women are much more likely to be killed because they don't (a) jump lights or (b) position themselves assertively. Which of those it is, I don't know.
Another point is that you can be forgotten in front of a lorry. Modern lorries have frontal mirrors to see directly in front of the cab, but IIRC they don't have to be retrofitted. I may be wrong. You can out-accelerate a lorry but not if it starts moving before the lights turn green!
Good point. I would never put myself anywhere near a stationary HGV at traffic lights. If filtering through traffic I would stop behind it. If I was already stopped before he got there (in middle of lane) he should be able to see me. Weaving around a parked one underneath the driver's nose is asking for major trouble.Another point is that you can be forgotten in front of a lorry. Modern lorries have frontal mirrors to see directly in front of the cab, but IIRC they don't have to be retrofitted. I may be wrong. You can out-accelerate a lorry but not if it starts moving before the lights turn green!
zebedee said:
If I was already stopped before he got there (in middle of lane) he should be able to see me.
He can see you on arriving at the stop, but unless he keeps his distance or has a mirror as described, you become invisible and he has to remember that you are there. Quite a lot to rely on.To be honest I think most cyclist injuries/fatalities are from being crushed by vehicles turning left around them, rather than straight run over on departure, but it's just an illustration of why you might not like to sit there.
Another point is that motorcyclists make the same claim; that it is safer to get ahead of the traffic. Different context because they can maintain that separation once away, but same basic principle: you don't want to be around bigger vehicles that may not have seen you.
Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 16th May 13:13
trashbat said:
e can see you on arriving at the stop, but unless he keeps his distance or has a mirror as described, you become invisible and he has to remember that you are there. Quite a lot to rely on.
To be honest I think most cyclist injuries/fatalities are from being crushed by vehicles turning left around them, rather than straight run over on departure, but it's just an illustration of why you might not like to sit there.
Another point is that motorcyclists make the same claim; that it is safer to get ahead of the traffic. Different context because they can maintain that separation once away, but same basic principle: you don't want to be around bigger vehicles that may not have seen you.
I have never been hit at a junction but can see how easily it could happen if positioned to the left, especially given how few cars actually signal these days. I have been hit twice by cars turning left that had just overtaken (well, not quite obviously) me before they turned left. I managed to stay upright each time by throwing my body against their car rather than sliding off and risking going under and both drivers were extremely apologetic. It is a different dynamic if you are both doing 20-30mph though I guess, as opposed to standing starts.To be honest I think most cyclist injuries/fatalities are from being crushed by vehicles turning left around them, rather than straight run over on departure, but it's just an illustration of why you might not like to sit there.
Another point is that motorcyclists make the same claim; that it is safer to get ahead of the traffic. Different context because they can maintain that separation once away, but same basic principle: you don't want to be around bigger vehicles that may not have seen you.
Edited by trashbat on Wednesday 16th May 13:13
I do think a lot of people don't position themselves to the middle at red lights because they worry that they will anger cars behind them, but I would imagine running red lights angers them far more.
I don't do it, ever. However, this morning my colleague was hooked by a driver turning left. The excuse was "I thought you would turn left". You don't have to jump the lights to be safe, but if you aren't going to very clearly "take the lane" (TBF my colleague claims she did), it's worth being quick away from the lights.
I'd pretty much agree with you OP - to use a half-arsed analogy, it's like flooring the throttle in response to oversteer in a fwd car. Counter-intuitively safer, but if you have to do it, you've already cocked up...
That said, I did ride around london recently - and found it a lot harder than my hometown to regain a strong position in the traffic stream once I'd lost it - either to filter or to let people past, once out nobody wanted to let me back in. So hooray for considerate drivers round mine!
That said, I did ride around london recently - and found it a lot harder than my hometown to regain a strong position in the traffic stream once I'd lost it - either to filter or to let people past, once out nobody wanted to let me back in. So hooray for considerate drivers round mine!
paranoid airbag said:
I'd pretty much agree with you OP - to use a half-arsed analogy, it's like flooring the throttle in response to oversteer in a fwd car. Counter-intuitively safer, but if you have to do it, you've already cocked up...
That said, I did ride around london recently - and found it a lot harder than my hometown to regain a strong position in the traffic stream once I'd lost it - either to filter or to let people past, once out nobody wanted to let me back in. So hooray for considerate drivers round mine!
Yes in thick traffic it is hard, especially if they stop right on (or past) the stop line so you can't get in front of the queue safely/legally. That is when I tend to look for a big enough gap in the stopped traffic and wait there instead. If traffic moving and you need to sneak in, a right arm signal will often alert a motorist enough, although I would agree in London motorists seem to be a much more unhappy bunch in general and I can imagine it being more diffcult to get them to give way.That said, I did ride around london recently - and found it a lot harder than my hometown to regain a strong position in the traffic stream once I'd lost it - either to filter or to let people past, once out nobody wanted to let me back in. So hooray for considerate drivers round mine!
The only light I ever jump on my commute is on CS7 just off the Elephant.
It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
Kermit power said:
The only light I ever jump on my commute is on CS7 just off the Elephant.
It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
Returning from or heading to the city?It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
I very rarely jump lights but have on occasion when I've been caught unaware by a big vehicle or two squeezing me and there isn't enough room to move infront of them without jumping the junction. I can clear a junction before most vehicles but on occasion (very rarely) I feel slightly more vulnerable than I'd like to so will jump.
One thing that amuses me is those who either:
a.) Stop at a red and then jump before it goes green - why stop in the first place if you're going to ignore it later on; and
b.) Those who go through, get stuck by traffic crossing their path and so stop and then get overtaken because they can't see when the lights (which are now far behind them) have turned green
Kermit power said:
The only light I ever jump on my commute is on CS7 just off the Elephant.
It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
Couldn't you position yourself off the cycle crossing and into the traffic if the phasing there is better? Or is it just too dangerous to do that? So does that mean that you are jumping a cyclist only red light? It is a specific cycle crossing which runs parallel to the pedestrian crossing at the same point, and the phasing of the lights is so bad that much of the time you'd be stopped there at a red light for minutes on end looking at absolutely no traffic anywhere in sight for 200m or more up the (one way) road.
The other 80 sets of lights, I will always stop at.
AyBee said:
Returning from or heading to the city?
I very rarely jump lights but have on occasion when I've been caught unaware by a big vehicle or two squeezing me and there isn't enough room to move infront of them without jumping the junction. I can clear a junction before most vehicles but on occasion (very rarely) I feel slightly more vulnerable than I'd like to so will jump.
One thing that amuses me is those who either:
a.) Stop at a red and then jump before it goes green - why stop in the first place if you're going to ignore it later on; and
b.) Those who go through, get stuck by traffic crossing their path and so stop and then get overtaken because they can't see when the lights (which are now far behind them) have turned green
when you say jump do you mean power through the junction as the light has only just turned red? I have done that before (as do many motorists) particularly when there is someone so close behind that slamming the anchors on is going to be more dangerous or where you hear the car accelerate or at least fail to brake when the amber light comes on. Once a red light has been on for a second or more that is when you risk coming into conflict with peds and motor vehicles and I think that is what winds some motorists up.I very rarely jump lights but have on occasion when I've been caught unaware by a big vehicle or two squeezing me and there isn't enough room to move infront of them without jumping the junction. I can clear a junction before most vehicles but on occasion (very rarely) I feel slightly more vulnerable than I'd like to so will jump.
One thing that amuses me is those who either:
a.) Stop at a red and then jump before it goes green - why stop in the first place if you're going to ignore it later on; and
b.) Those who go through, get stuck by traffic crossing their path and so stop and then get overtaken because they can't see when the lights (which are now far behind them) have turned green
walm said:
Those trotting out the old "safer to get ahead of traffic" excuse are simply lying.
They ran the red because they are lazy fekkers who don't want to lose momentum and see a "perfectly safe" opportunity to maintain speed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I'd just be interested if one of them that uses the line has an argument as to why not instead just adopt a central lane position at junctions and therefore be even safer and also legal. It seems pretty natural to me, but then as my commute is 35 miles a day saving 20 seconds here or there at a traffic light is pretty pointless anyway and the sprinting away at the green light is good for leg strength (if also bad for chain longevity).They ran the red because they are lazy fekkers who don't want to lose momentum and see a "perfectly safe" opportunity to maintain speed.
Nothing more, nothing less.
zebedee said:
pablo said:
i turn left on red IF there is nothing coming from the right and nothing coming from the opopsite direction intending to turn right.
The "research" from the IAM was a joke though and they deserve the abuse.
Why not just stop?The "research" from the IAM was a joke though and they deserve the abuse.
lets be grown up about this. If there is no oncoming traffic, you proceed with caution and at sensible pace so as to react should the situation change, there will be no danger.
As a cyclist, I am my number one priority when i'm commuting, me being flesh and bone and carbon fibre but I dont think turning left on red is inherently dangerous. Fly through at warp speed without checking for traffic and you deserve the consequences.
zebedee said:
AyBee said:
Returning from or heading to the city?
I very rarely jump lights but have on occasion when I've been caught unaware by a big vehicle or two squeezing me and there isn't enough room to move infront of them without jumping the junction. I can clear a junction before most vehicles but on occasion (very rarely) I feel slightly more vulnerable than I'd like to so will jump.
One thing that amuses me is those who either:
a.) Stop at a red and then jump before it goes green - why stop in the first place if you're going to ignore it later on; and
b.) Those who go through, get stuck by traffic crossing their path and so stop and then get overtaken because they can't see when the lights (which are now far behind them) have turned green
when you say jump do you mean power through the junction as the light has only just turned red? I have done that before (as do many motorists) particularly when there is someone so close behind that slamming the anchors on is going to be more dangerous or where you hear the car accelerate or at least fail to brake when the amber light comes on. Once a red light has been on for a second or more that is when you risk coming into conflict with peds and motor vehicles and I think that is what winds some motorists up.I very rarely jump lights but have on occasion when I've been caught unaware by a big vehicle or two squeezing me and there isn't enough room to move infront of them without jumping the junction. I can clear a junction before most vehicles but on occasion (very rarely) I feel slightly more vulnerable than I'd like to so will jump.
One thing that amuses me is those who either:
a.) Stop at a red and then jump before it goes green - why stop in the first place if you're going to ignore it later on; and
b.) Those who go through, get stuck by traffic crossing their path and so stop and then get overtaken because they can't see when the lights (which are now far behind them) have turned green
pablo said:
zebedee said:
pablo said:
i turn left on red IF there is nothing coming from the right and nothing coming from the opopsite direction intending to turn right.
The "research" from the IAM was a joke though and they deserve the abuse.
Why not just stop?The "research" from the IAM was a joke though and they deserve the abuse.
lets be grown up about this. If there is no oncoming traffic, you proceed with caution and at sensible pace so as to react should the situation change, there will be no danger.
As a cyclist, I am my number one priority when i'm commuting, me being flesh and bone and carbon fibre but I dont think turning left on red is inherently dangerous. Fly through at warp speed without checking for traffic and you deserve the consequences.
You don't even seem to doing it for personal safety reasons, you are doing it purely for your own convenience to save a bit of time.
Car users could use the same justificatio, couldn't they, for doing the same "well, there was nothing coming, so I turned left at the red light".
I'm not disagreeing with you that it isn't dangerous to proceed past many red lights, but it is illegal and it winds some motorists up (who might pass you further down the road) so those are the 2 reasons I don't do it. It also dismays other cyclists that realise we are often tarred with the same brush. I'm not having a go at you because I used to do the same before I realised from reading similar observations to mine (now) that I should change my ways. Do have a think about it...
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