A question about liability

[Reardy Mister]

The merits for and against PH's obligation to its actual business model and therefore its advertisers has been done to death.

BUT: if a PHer found a car and bought it via Pistonheads (which we would know because it would say "Sold via Pistonheads" on the ad) and it turned out to be a lemon or the dealer was a crook, how culpable are PH in any legal action taken buy the purchaser? Not very I wouldnt have thought, its probably advertised elsewhere anyway.

However, if it can be proved that PH was aware that there was something suspect about that dealer/advertiser and not only allowed them continue advertising but removed any mention of them not being strictly kosher, from the website, what then? Are they then implicit in any scam or dealings by the advertiser?

Im am referring to a thread of mine, but I AM NOT complaining or making any accusations at a particular advertiser. However it does beg a few questions for both the PH user and PH themselves, I think.

Will we get to a stage where PH is no longer a useful forum for helping fellow petrolheads or protecting ourselves by exchanging information about suspect dealers? Are we already there?

[DaveH23]

I would say they hold no liability at all.

The dealer is paying for a service which PH is providing. (The hosting of the advert)

If the end buyer has any kind of issue with the dealer I cannot see in any circumstance where PH would be liable.

[paulrussell]

Pistonheads wouldn't be liable, as they don't get involved in the sale of the cars. That is what I think.

[McHaggis]

None.

In the same way a newspaper holds no liability of the quality of the goods/services from an advertisment for, let's say, a holiday.

[Kinky]

So, by the same token Autotrader, eBay, Classic Cars, Honest John, Exchange and Mart, Evo, etc, etc, etc, etc, are all liable too.

The fraud warnings are very clear.

Caveat emptor.

End of.

Reardy Mister said:

Will we get to a stage where PH is no longer a useful forum for helping fellow petrolheads or protecting ourselves by exchanging information about suspect dealers? Are we already there?

You must be thinking of another website. We've never been at that stage and never will be. N&S rules cover that.

[Reardy Mister]

Kinky said:

So, by the same token Autotrader, eBay, Classic Cars, Honest John, Exchange and Mart, Evo, etc, etc, etc, etc, are all liable too.

The fraud warnings are very clear.

Caveat emptor.

End of.

Reardy Mister said:

Will we get to a stage where PH is no longer a useful forum for helping fellow petrolheads or protecting ourselves by exchanging information about suspect dealers? Are we already there?

You must be thinking of another website. We've never been at that stage and never will be. N&S rules cover that.

Ok, let me phrase it another way:

Is there any moral obligation on PH's part to help protect its users against sellers, trade or private, that are shown to be suspect, or is it a case of "Dodgy dealer's money is the same as everyone else's, sorry chaps you're on your own."?

There was a case of a certain person trying to flog a written off VX220. The thread ran and ran while him and his brothers business were named and indeed shamed for thier collective dishonesty.

Why was that different?

[Kinky]

Reardy Mister said:

Why was that different?

IIRC, it was because it was on another website. PH has no responsibility or control over content on other websites, nor what is advertised on other sites.

The reality is that PH is leading the way with managing fraudulent ads, with VSTAG. Details here: http://www.vstag.co.uk/

Also worth reading the fraud warnings too, just in case you've missed them:
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Are you asking the same question of all other sites that advertise cars too?

[Reardy Mister]

Kinky said:

Reardy Mister said:

Why was that different?

IIRC, it was because it was on another website. PH has no responsibility or control over content on other websites, nor what is advertised on other sites.

The reality is that PH is leading the way with managing fraudulent ads, with VSTAG. Details here: http://www.vstag.co.uk/

Are you asking the same question of all other sites that advertise cars too?

Im not needling, Im trying to bring an issue into the light for discussion.

I dont question other websites because I dont post on or browse for cars on other websites.

If you dont beleive its an issue at all, just say.

[Kinky]

Of course it's an issue; but becoming less so as time goes on.

Which is how and why VSTAG came together; over and above the measures that PH already takes.

Advertisers find new and different ways to scam, which is why the [REPORT TO ADMIN] link is still there, so they can be reported and actioned upon; both in the short-term and long-term.

If you are looking to off-load liability then this is not it

[Reardy Mister]

Kinky said:

Of course it's an issue; but becoming less so as time goes on.

Which is how and why VSTAG came together; over and above the measures that PH already takes.

Advertisers find new and different ways to scam, which is why the [REPORT TO ADMIN] link is still there, so they can be reported and actioned upon; both in the short-term and long-term.

If you are looking to off-load liability then this is not it

It wasnt a question of off-loading liability, so much as a) wondering to what extent PH had considered if they have moral obligations and if so how far they extend and b) finding out the extent to which the "PH community" is actually that.

I take it the answer is, "If you see something suspect, report it. All other correspondence will not be entered into."

Which is fine. Now I know.

As such, I dont beleive the advertiser referred to elsewhere is a "scammer". But I find some of his practices make this place look very untidy and was surprised at the limitations on discussing it.

Here endeth this line of questioning.

[CAPP0]

I've been a mod (in fact still am) on another, solus marque, forum, where it's possible for member A to post saying "I've got a used grommet for sale, 50p" and member B to agree to buy it, and send payment. Sometimes the grommet doesn't arrive, or it's more perished than A said it was, so B complains to the forum mods. At this point the mods huddle themselves into a frenzy of self-righteous avoidance of litigation and pass various data between the parties involved. I've never understood why they even get involved in the first place. Maybe they should read this thread.

[Kinky]

How very odd!

[paulrussell]

CAPP0 said:

I've been a mod (in fact still am) on another, solus marque, forum, where it's possible for member A to post saying "I've got a used grommet for sale, 50p" and member B to agree to buy it, and send payment. Sometimes the grommet doesn't arrive, or it's more perished than A said it was, so B complains to the forum mods. At this point the mods huddle themselves into a frenzy of self-righteous avoidance of litigation and pass various data between the parties involved. I've never understood why they even get involved in the first place. Maybe they should read this thread.

I'm a mod on another site aswell. That site has a for sale section, and the mods nor admins are responsible if something goes wrong. We don't let any disagremments over that sort of stuff on the forum, they have to sort it out themselves.

[Garlick]

Quite simple really. As publishers we are held responsible for comments posted. If a member is aggrieved and says 'don't touch ABC with a bargepole' and ABC lose business as a resullt, they can claim against us. We don't know the full story (two-sides to every tale) and we delete to comply with the 'no naming and shaming' rule that has been in force here for years. See the sticky thread from PetrolTed for clarification, it's not a new rule by any means.

If we are aware of an issue with an advertiser (with proper factual proof) then we take action, and that may mean declining adverts. We don't knowingly allow fraudulent companies to advertise but I stress that we only act on hard facts.

Not sure we have liability? We have legal bills to prove otherwise. Whether PistonHeads is a useful site is a decision only you as a user can make.

[CAPP0]

Just for clarity, in my example above, 99% of the "issues" are regarding transactions between two private individuals.