MoD 'may have to re-hire thousands'
Discussion
Same thing as happened in the nineties... As some wag put it: "There is something about p1ss ups, breweries, and organisational skills that is tapping on the edge of my memory banks, cant quite put my finger on it."
Article said:
The Ministry of Defence may be forced to re-hire thousands of personnel made redundant during recent cuts in order to tackle skills shortages, a committee of MPs is expected to say this week.
Some 29,000 civilian and 25,000 military jobs are to be cut by the Ministry of Defence by 2015 and thousands of personnel have already left under the ministry's Voluntary Early Release Scheme and through compulsory armed forces redundancies.
The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee is said to be about to publish a report warning that cutting jobs so quickly before the future civil service and army structures have been finalised may have been a mistake.
Allowing around 8,000 military and civilian personnel to leave voluntarily and not replacing 16,000 has left the ministry with insufficient control over which skilled staff it has lost, the report is expected to say.
In February this year the National Audit Office warned that MoD's plans to cut 54,000 military and civilian posts by 2015 could worsen the existing skills shortage within the MoD.
NAO chief Amyas Morse said at the time: "The department has acted decisively, but runs the risk that it will lose skills that it needs, worsening the current skills shortage. A more targeted approach is needed to restructure the workforce and retain the skills that will be required in future."
Earlier this year the MoD said that the average redundancy payout for a Sergeant equated to around £65,000, while civilians were given an average of £30,000. In January it was revealed that some £75m had been paid to 2,500 civilian personnel in the form of redundancy payouts.
http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=19800Some 29,000 civilian and 25,000 military jobs are to be cut by the Ministry of Defence by 2015 and thousands of personnel have already left under the ministry's Voluntary Early Release Scheme and through compulsory armed forces redundancies.
The House of Commons Public Accounts Committee is said to be about to publish a report warning that cutting jobs so quickly before the future civil service and army structures have been finalised may have been a mistake.
Allowing around 8,000 military and civilian personnel to leave voluntarily and not replacing 16,000 has left the ministry with insufficient control over which skilled staff it has lost, the report is expected to say.
In February this year the National Audit Office warned that MoD's plans to cut 54,000 military and civilian posts by 2015 could worsen the existing skills shortage within the MoD.
NAO chief Amyas Morse said at the time: "The department has acted decisively, but runs the risk that it will lose skills that it needs, worsening the current skills shortage. A more targeted approach is needed to restructure the workforce and retain the skills that will be required in future."
Earlier this year the MoD said that the average redundancy payout for a Sergeant equated to around £65,000, while civilians were given an average of £30,000. In January it was revealed that some £75m had been paid to 2,500 civilian personnel in the form of redundancy payouts.
Edited by andy_s on Monday 21st May 21:21
While the snippet you've posted in itself doesn't surprise me, what I note yet again is the vast disparity between large organisations, blue chips and the public sector on the one hand and SMEs on the other. If my industry wanted to re-size downwards its staffing levels (which it did so by around a third since 2007/8) it would do so at an average redundancy pay off of around £0 with a further £0 sloshed into the extremely rare pension pot.
If I were a youngster again...
If I were a youngster again...
XCP said:
'resize downwards' ?
Do people actually talk like this?
OH YESDo people actually talk like this?
in 2009 I had a 12 month contract with the MOD as a process improvement engineer in a repair organisation, which had a massive backlog of work.
After 5 months I had identified £150K of savings, and lead time reductions of 50% which could be achieved within 16 weeks, but they choose to cut all agency staff and consultants(i.e. me and 6 others like me, doing similar things in other areas of the site), and not make the savings.
Article said:
In January it was revealed that some £75m had been paid to 2,500 civilian personnel in the form of redundancy payouts.
http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_story.asp?id=19800So an average payout of £30k each!!! Most in the private sector would be lucky to get 10% of that.
I think here we have the reason why public spending hasn't dropped yet - all the redundancy payouts must be costing £billions.
The cynic in me suggests that there are some big companies out there about to get loads of 'cheap' (i.e. pre-skilled with semi-decent payouts which can be recruited at reduced cost in terms of salaries and on-going training etc) staff and loads of money from the government to bring those staff back in to the system they just left for some ratio of their original cost......
When I was a young fresh-faced 6th Former, I read Cecil Northcote Parkinson's essays, and I thought they were humorous satire. 'No person or organisation could be that inept or venal' I thought. 35 years on, I now sadly realise that if anything the essays were a massive overestimation 
coanda said:
The cynic in me suggests that there are some big companies out there about to get loads of 'cheap' (i.e. pre-skilled with semi-decent payouts which can be recruited at reduced cost in terms of salaries and on-going training etc) staff and loads of money from the government to bring those staff back in to the system they just left for some ratio of their original cost......
That's not cynical, it's a fact.MoD's redundancies in the 1990's resulted in contractors trying to hoover up all the highly skilled staff coming onto the market at a reduced salary rate. Nobody will convince me that this was not a planned endevour.
There were strict rules regarding the re-employment of ex-MoD staff by contractors, but the Military seemed to ignore them, whilst civilian technologists were, in the main, badly affected.
I was in the Army during the 90's round of redundancies. I hadn't been in long enough for it to be an option for me but being REME (tech trades) it was amazing to see it unfold.
The smart cookies jumped on it as they knew they'd be fine in civvy street and most of those left were the dross. It created a huge skills gap at the mid-management level and performance suffered greatly - then they decided to pay a nice tax free re-joining bonus to get the good guys back in again but even then it was too late.
Perhap it would be different this time as the external market is in a much worse position than it was but it still shows a massive lack of management from the MOD - useless t
ts.
The smart cookies jumped on it as they knew they'd be fine in civvy street and most of those left were the dross. It created a huge skills gap at the mid-management level and performance suffered greatly - then they decided to pay a nice tax free re-joining bonus to get the good guys back in again but even then it was too late.
Perhap it would be different this time as the external market is in a much worse position than it was but it still shows a massive lack of management from the MOD - useless t
ts.Saddle bum said:
All too late.
MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
MoD is too much of a political tool. How do you sustain the UK defence industry and still get value for money? take Ships, what happens when MoD have built the new T26 Frigates? do MoD lay off all the shipbuilding staff or design and build something new on the basis that BAe/RR/Babcock will whinge to the PM that the Industry will be lost.... and cue the new Type Forty-whatever destroyer....MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
Contractors have an easy route into PM lobbying circles which the MoD cant control as the recent Fox/Werrity issue demonstrated.
scenario8 said:
While the snippet you've posted in itself doesn't surprise me, what I note yet again is the vast disparity between large organisations, blue chips and the public sector on the one hand and SMEs on the other. If my industry wanted to re-size downwards its staffing levels (which it did so by around a third since 2007/8) it would do so at an average redundancy pay off of around £0 with a further £0 sloshed into the extremely rare pension pot.
If I were a youngster again...
What industry do you work in then?If I were a youngster again...
Saddle bum said:
All too late.
MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
Well then it's a good job we have the friendly face of BAES to step into that role then MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
I took Voluntary Early Severance on Compulsary Terms and I can assure you that £30k is well short of the mark for most of us. I was a senior manager and the expert in my field.
I did my best to ensure continuity when my department closed in Mar 08, but regardless of the training I gave to the poor guys that were left I knew they wouldn't be able to do the job properly due to lack of expertise and time. The guys that were left were project managers who were supposed to be the intelligent customer, but they can't be intelligent about everything.
If you are an MOD supplier, now is a good time to make lots of wonga. Only your conscience stands between you and a fortune.
I did my best to ensure continuity when my department closed in Mar 08, but regardless of the training I gave to the poor guys that were left I knew they wouldn't be able to do the job properly due to lack of expertise and time. The guys that were left were project managers who were supposed to be the intelligent customer, but they can't be intelligent about everything.
If you are an MOD supplier, now is a good time to make lots of wonga. Only your conscience stands between you and a fortune.
pingu393 said:
I took Voluntary Early Severance on Compulsary Terms and I can assure you that £30k is well short of the mark for most of us. I was a senior manager and the expert in my field.
I did my best to ensure continuity when my department closed in Mar 08, but regardless of the training I gave to the poor guys that were left I knew they wouldn't be able to do the job properly due to lack of expertise and time. The guys that were left were project managers who were supposed to be the intelligent customer, but they can't be intelligent about everything.
If you are an MOD supplier, now is a good time to make lots of wonga. Only your conscience stands between you and a fortune.
Well then it's a good job we have the friendly face of BAES to step into that role then I did my best to ensure continuity when my department closed in Mar 08, but regardless of the training I gave to the poor guys that were left I knew they wouldn't be able to do the job properly due to lack of expertise and time. The guys that were left were project managers who were supposed to be the intelligent customer, but they can't be intelligent about everything.
If you are an MOD supplier, now is a good time to make lots of wonga. Only your conscience stands between you and a fortune.
How's that for efficiency?
rhinochopig said:
Saddle bum said:
All too late.
MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
Well then it's a good job we have the friendly face of BAES to step into that role then MoD is no longer an "Intelligent Customer". After the staff reductions among the technology classes during the '90s, it has never recovered and is unable to manage projects or control contractors.
At other times Rolls Royce remembers it has responsibilities, wakes up and says a few words. Then it goes back to not making an effort.
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