Racing helmets...
Discussion
At the risk of starting a new thread on a subject already covered time and again...
Why the hell are MSA acceptable helmets so expensive? I'm a biker and I can get a sharp 5* helmet for less than £100. Sure there are some differences, but I don't know what justifies the cost increase over an M/C helmet.
Now I'm sure someone will come up with the cheap quip about "cheap helmet for a cheap head", but I'm sure most people understand that there's more to the cost than quality (branding & marketing).
Anyone know where I can get a reasonably priced helmet that will meet one of the 2013 MSA requirements - SNELL sa2010 or similar that also looks reasonable?
Hed-tec is the closest I can find but they just look terrible!
Why the hell are MSA acceptable helmets so expensive? I'm a biker and I can get a sharp 5* helmet for less than £100. Sure there are some differences, but I don't know what justifies the cost increase over an M/C helmet.
Now I'm sure someone will come up with the cheap quip about "cheap helmet for a cheap head", but I'm sure most people understand that there's more to the cost than quality (branding & marketing).
Anyone know where I can get a reasonably priced helmet that will meet one of the 2013 MSA requirements - SNELL sa2010 or similar that also looks reasonable?
Hed-tec is the closest I can find but they just look terrible!
Scuffers said:
what's wrong with BS 6658 Type A/FR helmets?
Happy with those too "snell sa2010 or similar". They're still massively expensive in comparison to their M/C equivalents and there's no decent independent testers like sharp for MSA helmets.- May be withdrawn with effect from 01/01/16 - according to the 2012 blue book
daemonoid said:
Scuffers said:
what's wrong with BS 6658 Type A/FR helmets?
Happy with those too "snell sa2010 or similar". They're still massively expensive in comparison to their M/C equivalents and there's no decent independent testers like sharp for MSA helmets.- May be withdrawn with effect from 01/01/16 - according to the 2012 blue book
The Wookie said:
Volume.
There are lots of bikers and there are far fewer racing drivers. A car lid has to be a completely different design compared to the bike lids.
I think 'completely different' is over stating it. There are minor differences, the testing & certification of course costs a lot - I'm just very surprised that one of the cheap but quality M/C helmet manufacturers hasn't given it a go. Caberg often get 5* sharp ratings at <£100, if they tweaked their design and got tested I'm sure they'd be able to make a few quid.There are lots of bikers and there are far fewer racing drivers. A car lid has to be a completely different design compared to the bike lids.
The problem seems to be that the UK no longer has a Motorsport standard of its own. The old BS helmets are being phased out and replaced by an ECE. Unfortunately the MSA does not allow the European standard leaving manufacturers the choice of snell or accreditation within every single EU country. This means most manufacturers have to charge VAT and of course they're nearly all grey imports.
I may have found a solution though... I'll buy from the US next time the company sends me over. Bell sport £340 from the UK, £175 in the US!
Well to be honest you could say that every helmet has only slight differences as they're all broadly the same shape, material and overall design! They still need to go through the same design process with different requirements, so it's still designing a new lid.
Also I was always under the impression that most bike helmets were mass manufactured, whereas decent race lids are practically hand made.
Also I was always under the impression that most bike helmets were mass manufactured, whereas decent race lids are practically hand made.
The Wookie said:
Well to be honest you could say that every helmet has only slight differences as they're all broadly the same shape, material and overall design! They still need to go through the same design process with different requirements, so it's still designing a new lid.
Also I was always under the impression that most bike helmets were mass manufactured, whereas decent race lids are practically hand made.
It is designing a new lid, but M/C manufacturers usually have fairly vast ranges already. My point it that there is not that much more effort designing a new MS helmet is little more than a new M/C helmet. Even worse, up until the removal ofthe BS 6658A you could use a M/C helmet on the racetrack.Also I was always under the impression that most bike helmets were mass manufactured, whereas decent race lids are practically hand made.
Hand made is quite a good marketing spin on "it's cheaper to do this manually, rather than pay for tooling". I doubt the process varies at the likes of Arai who do both.
daemonoid said:
It is designing a new lid, but M/C manufacturers usually have fairly vast ranges already. My point it that there is not that much more effort designing a new MS helmet is little more than a new M/C helmet. Even worse, up until the removal ofthe BS 6658A you could use a M/C helmet on the racetrack.
Hand made is quite a good marketing spin on "it's cheaper to do this manually, rather than pay for tooling". I doubt the process varies at the likes of Arai who do both.
I'm not saying hand made is necessarily better, it's just indicative of volume. And if they were that close to the original M/C helmets then surely they'd just use the same tooling and knock them out by volume!Hand made is quite a good marketing spin on "it's cheaper to do this manually, rather than pay for tooling". I doubt the process varies at the likes of Arai who do both.
I don't see why the use of M/C helmets for car racing is beneficial to be honest, it saves money but takes us back to 'cheap helmets for cheap heads' if it's not up to the job.
The Wookie said:
I don't see why the use of M/C helmets for car racing is beneficial to be honest, it saves money but takes us back to 'cheap helmets for cheap heads' if it's not up to the job.
As I said earlier, I think that cheap quip has been blown out of the water by the sharp testing. The £500+ Arai Rx7 GP does not perform as well as a £90 caberg or a £70 Lazer. I'd prefer to use my head to find the best helmet for the best price rather than just looking at price tags and brand names. After all, a lot of the cost of your Arai goes to putting up posters in bike show rooms and logos on racers rather than keeping your head safe.Given that now I've researched it I can get a decent helmet and HANS device for less than the cost of a high spec (non-CF) Arai I think I can get the best safety within my budget!
Edited by daemonoid on Thursday 24th May 11:39
daemonoid said:
The £500+ Arai Rx7 GP does not perform as well as a £90 caberg or a £70 Lazer. I'd prefer to use my head to find the best helmet for the best price rather than just looking at price tags and brand names.
Fair enough, you pays your money and you takes your choice but I struggle to understand why Lazer would make their cheapest helmet better than their most expensive helmets!To be honest though, I don't buy Arai because of brand name (and certainly not price!), I buy it because it's the only brand that seems to fit my fat head perfectly!
The Wookie said:
Fair enough, you pays your money and you takes your choice but I struggle to understand why Lazer would make their cheapest helmet better than their most expensive helmets!
To be honest though, I don't buy Arai because of brand name (and certainly not price!), I buy it because it's the only brand that seems to fit my fat head perfectly!
It's because when you look at what actually goes into a helmet there's not actually much value - a polystyrene impact zone, covered by a shell and some nice lining. Purely on parts you're talking very few pounds... The design and certification certainly cost, but if you take some of the design constraints away (think, style, weight, cooling, demisting) then the design is very cheap. By cutting out the marketing they manage to make a cheap product that performs well at its primary purpose, but it will only sell in fairly low volumes.To be honest though, I don't buy Arai because of brand name (and certainly not price!), I buy it because it's the only brand that seems to fit my fat head perfectly!
I have a shoei for my bike, I went with it for the pinlock demisting, the cooling vents and the fact it's fairly light (and of course it fits - which is the most important thing). It was £280 (on special), but really does have all the toys with it, for a race helmet that will get far less use I want the basic safety but without the extras (including branding / marketing).
Scuffers said:
You should ask how much it costs to have a helmet Snell certified....
(mate works for a big manufacture and when they asked for certification testing quotes, it was close to 6 figure numbers (in USD ) and that was some years ago...
His view was it was effectively an FIA backhander
I think you've hit the nail on the head there! The fact that the EU (ECE testing) wouldn't allow that means that despite the likelihood that most M/C helmets would pass if they had a flameproof lining they just aren't tested / developed. It's a backhander to the FIA and the manufacturers obviously recover that from consumers and then add a few quid just because they can (after all, racers are always rich right...).(mate works for a big manufacture and when they asked for certification testing quotes, it was close to 6 figure numbers (in USD ) and that was some years ago...
His view was it was effectively an FIA backhander
I won't even get started on the costs of an FIA race suit! The prices are ridiculous for the quality of the products.
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