Water/meth injection
Discussion
Water injection does 2 things,
1. reduces air temperatures (was used in WW2 in spifires !)
the water cools down the air
2. works as a antidetonant
it creates a small missfire that slows down combustion and prevents detonation
in my experience water injection will drop power on the engine(sometimes a lot) unless it was mapped using the water
you can build your own water inj kit for not a lot of money, you will need a 12v pump, bottle and pressure switch.
i use water inj on another car and was able to buy a flojet pump as used in wrc cars for approx 100 quid. the rest was cheap
i am not sure a noble needs water inj unless it is tuned very hard - you might want to consider a intercooler spray instead
1. reduces air temperatures (was used in WW2 in spifires !)
the water cools down the air
2. works as a antidetonant
it creates a small missfire that slows down combustion and prevents detonation
in my experience water injection will drop power on the engine(sometimes a lot) unless it was mapped using the water
you can build your own water inj kit for not a lot of money, you will need a 12v pump, bottle and pressure switch.
i use water inj on another car and was able to buy a flojet pump as used in wrc cars for approx 100 quid. the rest was cheap
i am not sure a noble needs water inj unless it is tuned very hard - you might want to consider a intercooler spray instead
Bad advice IMO.... start spraying water on your intercooler on track and you will be black flagged for leaking fluids by the first mashall you pass. The water also does not fully evaporate so it will run down onto everything below it and if it gets into your heat wrap, it may help to rust your chassis.
Water meth kits are not too expensive, and easy to fit. The hardest part is getting a boss welded to your hardpipe kit for the nozzle.Use just water or maybe up to 15% meth and there does not seem to be a downside.Meth is corrosive but we use it watered down and it doesn't really have a long contact time with the engine internals when in use.All IMO of course.
Water meth kits are not too expensive, and easy to fit. The hardest part is getting a boss welded to your hardpipe kit for the nozzle.Use just water or maybe up to 15% meth and there does not seem to be a downside.Meth is corrosive but we use it watered down and it doesn't really have a long contact time with the engine internals when in use.All IMO of course.
chuntington101 said:
Also worth reading up on pre-turbo water injection. it basically help increase the efficeny of the turbo (compressor side) as it keeps the air cooler as it is compressed. google it for more info. Might be helpfull for people pushing stock turbos hard.
Chris.
Agreed although normally works better on bigger turbos it seems.Chris.
daddysumo said:
Bad advice IMO.... start spraying water on your intercooler on track and you will be black flagged for leaking fluids by the first mashall you pass. The water also does not fully evaporate so it will run down onto everything below it and if it gets into your heat wrap, it may help to rust your chassis.
Water meth kits are not too expensive, and easy to fit. The hardest part is getting a boss welded to your hardpipe kit for the nozzle.Use just water or maybe up to 15% meth and there does not seem to be a downside.Meth is corrosive but we use it watered down and it doesn't really have a long contact time with the engine internals when in use.All IMO of course.
Another potential problem to be aware of with intercooler sprayers is that they don't work just by spraying the IC with water to cool it down - the cooling effect is actually derived from the energy transfer (heat) that occurs as the water evaporates - the latent heat of vaporisation if you can remember back to schooldays?Water meth kits are not too expensive, and easy to fit. The hardest part is getting a boss welded to your hardpipe kit for the nozzle.Use just water or maybe up to 15% meth and there does not seem to be a downside.Meth is corrosive but we use it watered down and it doesn't really have a long contact time with the engine internals when in use.All IMO of course.
If you spray too much water, the molecules nearest to the IC are blanketed by the outer layer of water and can't actually evaporate, hence no energy transfer.
Plus, too much water actually insulates the IC and clogs the core, reducing airflow through it and potentially reducing IC efficiency to less than it was without the water spray!
Of course, making sure that there is only a very fine even mist should avoid all this, so IMHO they are still worth looking at - with Steve's caution re track use etc - but water volume and spray pattern are something to bare in mind....
Regards
Graham
Just make sure you buy a good pump...the best complete system is he HSF3 from aquamist but this system is more for is you want to increase power and is linked to the injector cycle, and with pure meth you can increase power quite a bit and safely, there is only one pump on the market that can truly handle pure meth..
Note the pump, this is " the pump" you want no matter what system you use(imo)
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/H3.html
This is not their pump, it is a AIS DDP 5800, you can buy them from here...
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p116/AIS-25...
I would buy a boost activated system and therefore if not being used to increase power it offers many other benefits.
Lowers intake temps
Reduces cylinder head temps
prevents detonation
Cools and cleans combustion chamber
If i were to buy a system then this is the one..
It comes with the best pump available and the tank looks great... i would upgrade to dual smaller nozzle with low level sensor..
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p275/Stage-...
other websites from the UK..
Devils own http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/
I personally would go for 50/50 mix though...
Note the pump, this is " the pump" you want no matter what system you use(imo)
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/H3.html
This is not their pump, it is a AIS DDP 5800, you can buy them from here...
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p116/AIS-25...
I would buy a boost activated system and therefore if not being used to increase power it offers many other benefits.
Lowers intake temps
Reduces cylinder head temps
prevents detonation
Cools and cleans combustion chamber
If i were to buy a system then this is the one..
It comes with the best pump available and the tank looks great... i would upgrade to dual smaller nozzle with low level sensor..
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p275/Stage-...
other websites from the UK..
Devils own http://www.methanol-injection.co.uk/
I personally would go for 50/50 mix though...
I saw Daddysumo car mapped on teh dyno without water injection... after mapping they turned it on to measure the power drop it caused... 5bhp on a 600bhp plus car.
Im going to fit it for no reason other than it cant hurt... might read up on the pre turbo setup and see if it might work on mine
Im going to fit it for no reason other than it cant hurt... might read up on the pre turbo setup and see if it might work on mine
andygtt said:
I saw Daddysumo car mapped on teh dyno without water injection... after mapping they turned it on to measure the power drop it caused... 5bhp on a 600bhp plus car.
Im going to fit it for no reason other than it cant hurt... might read up on the pre turbo setup and see if it might work on mine
Yes but I was running more meth than we do now. Grants car added around 10 bhp with a weaker mix. We dont know the start intake temps of the non water power run so cannot say for sure it was the water, but in reality nothing was lost and this was with intake temps down in the 20's. I would love to do a run with the intake temps up in the 40's where power is starting to be backed out, then again with the water on to see what difference it makes.. if any...Im going to fit it for no reason other than it cant hurt... might read up on the pre turbo setup and see if it might work on mine
I don't like the sound of injecting cold water into the path of a glowing hot compressor wheel tbh.
The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
Blu3R said:
I don't like the sound of injecting cold water into the path of a glowing hot compressor wheel tbh.
The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
If your comp wheel is glowing you have a problem! The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
THere are lots of dicusseion about it and if it could damage the wheel. best to contact the supplier. It is anyother option though. Some people spray pre IAt and then use he lower intake temp to pull the fueling / ignitional tables into a diffrent load zone. THis means you can tune for on and off meth in the same map...
Chris.
If ever you get stuck you can just use windsreen wash..the premixed stuff is perfect about 30% meth.so you can top up at any service station.its coming round to summer with the hot weather, i'm defiantely going to get this fitted...20deg intake temps no matter what the oustide ambient temp is..yes please..
Simon, it is best if you get it fitted before the remap, get yer skates on..
Simon, it is best if you get it fitted before the remap, get yer skates on..
andygtt said:
TuxMan said:
Steve , where do you get the meth from and do you use tap water or has it got to be distilled . thanks Tux
it has to be the finest purest water, distilled by naked virgins (no not you James D!).only £100 per gallon
Blu3R said:
I don't like the sound of injecting cold water into the path of a glowing hot compressor wheel tbh.
The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
I agree 100% but most systems either use boost or revs, not a combination of both, so I would rather use boost activated so that max water at max boost/ stress.We don't run alot of boost up top so its my preference this way... not saying it right but just the way I see it.The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
My max boost is at 7500rpm because if I didn't restrict it lower down it would make stupid torque and destroy the gearbox etc.
So boost controlled is perfect for my car.... And pretty sure the intake compressor wheel shoulnt be glowing hot.
Let's be honest it's all r&d anyhow, I will be logging all engine temps and even egt using the motec ecu so will get a good idea of what's happening
So boost controlled is perfect for my car.... And pretty sure the intake compressor wheel shoulnt be glowing hot.
Let's be honest it's all r&d anyhow, I will be logging all engine temps and even egt using the motec ecu so will get a good idea of what's happening
Blu3R said:
I don't like the sound of injecting cold water into the path of a glowing hot compressor wheel tbh.
The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
The boost systems have a wide range controller between 1-30psi, so it not only sprays when boost is high, you can set it to spray between 10psi upwards so when boost starts to drop back off is still spraying until it drops back below 10psi, it should still be spraying t 7000rpm if set up right.The boost only systems will inject the most water at the highest boost so say, 3.5krpm? What about at 7krpm when the engine is consuming X times more air?? Surely to be as effective it'll need to consume X times more water too.
You should also be careful where the nozzle is sited in relation to the charge air temp sensor. Depending on what you're trying to achieve you may find that the water gives incorrect readings, further complicating things.
Imo you do not want to spray too early as it is wasted and creates power loss, plus you empty your tank too fast, on mine it will be 9psi to 16si on normal driving it will hardly get used..and hat the great thing about it, i could drive 100km cruising without hardly using the water/meth injection.
Putting the nozzle at the beginning of the hard pipe length just after the IC is the perfect location you do not want it too close to the intake but not too far away either, the layout for this system is good on our cars, this is where there is space for the tank and pump above the gear box, the nozzle and boost and vacuum pipes are local..
Chris, AEM and a tuning place i spoke to recommend having the injector as close to the throttle body as possible and after any bends (my one is in the hard pipe though) so the mist doesn't have time to form droplets again. Also you don't want the bov dumping a meth mix into your engine bay so it should be down stream of that if you have one.
Surely, if you want it to vapourise and adsorb all the heat by turning from droplets to vapour, then you want to inject it at the hottest place - namely at the compressor out - or at least before the intercooler. That way, you give it maximum chance of being a vapour and therefore having adsorbed the most heat and been the most effective on the temperature of the intake charge. Also, you have the huge surface area in the intercooler for droplets to evaporate from - like external spray onto the intercooler.
Further, if you inject downstream of the temperature sensor, the ECU will pull spark etc not knowing about the cooler charge.
Just my $0.02c
YellowShed
Further, if you inject downstream of the temperature sensor, the ECU will pull spark etc not knowing about the cooler charge.
Just my $0.02c
YellowShed
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