pocket watch movement in wristwatch packages.

[Pinky and Perky]

Guys after some opinion.

I've saw this today and have seen many others like this in the past.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IWC-Schaffhausen-SWISS-P...

A fair few of these types of watches, where turn of the century pocket watch movements have been re-cased in modern but classicaly styled stainless wristwatch cases with new dials and hands are available, and are being sold under the headline of the modern watch company (if it still exists).
I'd be interested in peoples views of this type of activity. I think some of the watches look great (others not so) and it's a wonderful use of some of the old pocket watch movements that may never have been used again.
However these watches whilst not cheap (some do go for 4 figure sums on the bay) they are significantly cheaper than a newer wristwatch from the current range (of the same name), or even a used example of an accepted classic.
Does this type of activity devalue the newer marque, is it nothing more than blatant plagerisim passing of an old part under the newer nomenclature? Or is it just good recylcing and marketing by those involved.

Thoughts....?

[Nick M]

I think there's a comparison with classic cars, such as old Bentleys which have been converted to something which was very different to how they began life, or cars which have been updated with modern running gear.

If the case of the original watch was, for example, damaged beyond reasonable repair, then this solution seems to be a good way to keep something going which might otherwise have just been thrown away. And how can that be a bad thing ? (I would, however, have slightly more of an issue if a mint condition watch was stripped and fitted to a modern case)

Whilst to the purist they are likely to result in increased blood pressure and comments about it not being the done thing, my view is that provided there remain some good examples of the original watches to be preserved for posterity then the occasional modified version is no big deal since it will give enjoyment to the owner for what it is, not what it was.

[Tanguero]

The usual reason at the moment for caseless movements is that the original case was gold and has been sold for scrap because gold prices make it more valuable than the complete watch.

[Pinky and Perky]

Thanks for the replies guys.
So in reality do these watches have any provenance at all, in a lot of cases the movement isn't even marked so how they can say with surity its "1908 patek Phillipe" surely all guesswork to some extent?
Is it even legal to mark a dial with the same maker mark as the movement comes from? Using the automotive example above surely thats like putting a prancing horse logo on the front of an Astra with a ferrari engine in it.

My problem here is I don't trust Ebay, and wouldn't consider parting with £500-700 quid for a watch with little provenance from Russia, I would consider it if from a decent reputable jeweller locally to me (or even in the UK) but have never seen such watches available.

[FlybyWyre]

I cannot imagine anyone taking a Patek Philippe movement that works, new case, and expecting a profit.
Unless they take the further option and put a budget movement in the PP case.

Astra with a Ferrari engine and a Ferrari with an Astra engine. Doesn't make sense to me but I am not Russian (well a little bit but before the revolution)

[Tanguero]

Pinky and Perky said:

Thanks for the replies guys.
So in reality do these watches have any provenance at all, in a lot of cases the movement isn't even marked so how they can say with surity its "1908 patek Phillipe" surely all guesswork to some extent?
Is it even legal to mark a dial with the same maker mark as the movement comes from? Using the automotive example above surely thats like putting a prancing horse logo on the front of an Astra with a ferrari engine in it.

My problem here is I don't trust Ebay, and wouldn't consider parting with £500-700 quid for a watch with little provenance from Russia, I would consider it if from a decent reputable jeweller locally to me (or even in the UK) but have never seen such watches available.

I think you are rather looking at it the wrong way round. The movement is the watch and is generally how you would identify a particular model, what it is cased in is to some extent secondary. There are lots of clues as to the identity of a movement besides any stamped marking. The shapes of the bridges and particularly the design of the keyless works are often as identifiable as any stamp.

A Patek movement in a Chinese tin case is worth a hell of a lot more than a Chinese movement in a Patek case. Obviously neither are probably worth as much as the original movement in the original case. Unfortunately the high price of gold means that many watches are being stripped of their cases because the scrap value of the case is higher than the value of the complete watch. The best movements are sometimes lucky and avoid the bin and get recycled into a different case.

ETA A recased Patek movement on eBay is something to be treated with the most enormous amount of scepticism though!

[clockworks]

No idea about the originality of the movements and dials in this type of watch, but I wonder how many pocketwatch makers also built cases back in the day? AFAIK, cases were bought in from specialist case makers.

If you want a large wristwatch with a pocketwatch movement, the Chinese make some good examples for around £50, using Asian Unitas 6497/8 copies (not fakes).

[Pinky and Perky]

Tanguero said:

I think you are rather looking at it the wrong way round. The movement is the watch and is generally how you would identify a particular model, what it is cased in is to some extent secondary. There are lots of clues as to the identity of a movement besides any stamped marking. The shapes of the bridges and particularly the design of the keyless works are often as identifiable as any stamp.

A Patek movement in a Chinese tin case is worth a hell of a lot more than a Chinese movement in a Patek case. Obviously neither are probably worth as much as the original movement in the original case. Unfortunately the high price of gold means that many watches are being stripped of their cases because the scrap value of the case is higher than the value of the complete watch. The best movements are sometimes lucky and avoid the bin and get recycled into a different case.

ETA A recased Patek movement on eBay is something to be treated with the most enormous amount of scepticism though!

Sorry I've probably not made myself clear, I agree with your stance the movement does make the watch, but does simply putting an old IWC pocket watch movement inside a new case, then give you the right to package the whole deal as an IWC?
The issue about these itesm for sale on ebay and from Russia at that is secondary but adds a huge amount of uncertainty.
Put simply I can't afford a current PP watch, I can't afford an old PP model watch, but I could afford one of these types of "re-cased movement" deals, but my head just keeps on telling me its not worth it, and I'd feel somehow cheated, don't know if anybody else gets that?

[Nick M]

Pinky and Perky said:

Put simply I can't afford a current PP watch, I can't afford an old PP model watch, but I could afford one of these types of "re-cased movement" deals, but my head just keeps on telling me its not worth it, and I'd feel somehow cheated, don't know if anybody else gets that?

Get it entirely.

You might feel somehow cheated, because you might have been very actually cheated...

So, if in doubt, don't ?

However, if you can afford to take a punt and accept that 'buyer beware' should be shouting at you loud and clear, then you may end up getting what you expected in terms of the movement, and thus with a watch you really like which is a bit different. If you can enjoy it for what it is, rather than what it no longer is, then happy days.

But if you resent it because it's not a complete PP or whatever, then probably best avoided.

[Nick M]

PS Damn you for making me look at those !!

[Pinky and Perky]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...

Here is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make.
Great looks (not to everbodies taste I'm well aware), Patek name, classy and old movement.
An old Patek at a fraction of the price? Or a rip of?

Buy the way guys, thanks for the responses I appreciate it.

[Pinky and Perky]

NeMiSiS said:

Important: Google WANDOLEC or search for my posts on Pocket watch conversions.

You need to be aware.

Thanks for that warning, did a quick Google and seams to be avery mixed bag of replies, also looks like the discussion was around Russian watches only (not sure but that was my take). The serach function on PH doesn't seam to be working at the moment so I will do a bit of digging later.

Cheers.

[Pinky and Perky]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VERY-RARE-STAINLESS-STEL...

It just gets worse. I can feel my wallet loosening all the time I look at these items.

[Tanguero]

Pinky and Perky said:

Sorry I've probably not made myself clear, I agree with your stance the movement does make the watch, but does simply putting an old IWC pocket watch movement inside a new case, then give you the right to package the whole deal as an IWC?
The issue about these itesm for sale on ebay and from Russia at that is secondary but adds a huge amount of uncertainty.
Put simply I can't afford a current PP watch, I can't afford an old PP model watch, but I could afford one of these types of "re-cased movement" deals, but my head just keeps on telling me its not worth it, and I'd feel somehow cheated, don't know if anybody else gets that?

I understand where you are coming form now! You are right - a recased movement does not make it a watch by the original manufacturer by any means, and it shouldnt be labeled as such.

There are a horrifying number of orphaned movements being scrapped because of the value of their cases, and not just "modern" pocket watches, but historicaly important ones too. You could look at it that by buying one (if it is a recased genuine movement) that you are giving it a new lease of life and saving it from the scrap bin.

[Pinky and Perky]

Agree, saving the movements and the history is where I'm coming from, I think these types of products offer better value than perhaps their more modern mass produced counter parts. So long as there is proof they're genuine.