Diesel woes - help me find something non-suicidal to drive..
Discussion
Afternoon all
I have just moved to a new house 22 miles from where I work. The commute in is a mixture of flowing 50mph B road (third of journey), 1 junction of the M4 where there are rarely any hold-ups (third of journey)and rural twisty fun country single track lanes (final third of journey).
I currently commute in an 01' 325Ci which I really enjoy driving and am (according to the onboard computer) getting 36mpg by driving very carefully. I have an MR2 Turbo for the weekends.
Depending on our finances (we have also just had our first child, so mine is now the only income) I may have to resort to a diesel commuter. This fills me with dread - tractor noises etc.
If I had £3k to spend, what diesel could I get that would offer reasonable consumption mixed with a relatively entertaining drive (if this is possible)?
My current thinking is a Seat Leon Cupra FR Diesel, but that is about all I can come up with.
Any suggestions gratefully received!
Rob
I have just moved to a new house 22 miles from where I work. The commute in is a mixture of flowing 50mph B road (third of journey), 1 junction of the M4 where there are rarely any hold-ups (third of journey)and rural twisty fun country single track lanes (final third of journey).
I currently commute in an 01' 325Ci which I really enjoy driving and am (according to the onboard computer) getting 36mpg by driving very carefully. I have an MR2 Turbo for the weekends.
Depending on our finances (we have also just had our first child, so mine is now the only income) I may have to resort to a diesel commuter. This fills me with dread - tractor noises etc.
If I had £3k to spend, what diesel could I get that would offer reasonable consumption mixed with a relatively entertaining drive (if this is possible)?
My current thinking is a Seat Leon Cupra FR Diesel, but that is about all I can come up with.
Any suggestions gratefully received!
Rob
davepoth said:
I think the logical answer is a slightly newer 3-series with a derv motor since they are supposed to be very good, or maybe even a 320i which would be better on fuel, but still the right sort of fuel and the right number of cylinders.
From what people have said on here before it makes little difference to mpg from any of the bmw sixes. £3k diesel according to common perception will cost you the same in parts each year as well, No idea if it's true. If your getting 36 mpg from the bmw why change just to get another 5 mpg form a diesel. I do about the same weekly mileage as you in a 318is and average 36 mpg. I'm only going to change it when it starts costing me too much to keep on the road. Its just not worth spending £3k on a diesel just to get another 5ish more mpg.
You would honestly be better buying a more modern petrol that will do 40+ such as a Swift Sport. Still good fun but cheap to run.
You would honestly be better buying a more modern petrol that will do 40+ such as a Swift Sport. Still good fun but cheap to run.
Do the sums. As in how much money could you save realistically?
Also I seriously don't understand why people grown about diesels, they are perfectly fine. And as you say you've been driving careful, then you've hardly been exploiting your BMW. So how is a diesel really going to be less interesting to drive?
Also I seriously don't understand why people grown about diesels, they are perfectly fine. And as you say you've been driving careful, then you've hardly been exploiting your BMW. So how is a diesel really going to be less interesting to drive?
I do a 56 mile return trip each day, on what sounds like a similar route, and I get 43-46mpg week in, week out from a 2.0 petrol. Is it an interesting car to drive? No, not really, but it was cheap to buy, is cheap to run an maintain (by myself) and has enough gizmos and mod-cons for me.
Would there be any point in me chopping it in for a derv? Not really.
Would there be any point in me chopping it in for a derv? Not really.
Matt UK said:
44 miles a day and you want to chop an 01 325ci for a £3k diesel? I wouldn't.
At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
Rant time! How on earth would anybody fail to factor in the extra cost at the pump? What calculations are people doing? Dear people, don't just pick a number you like the sound of At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
It takes so little time to actually do the maths that I don't fully understand why people bother with their rules of thumb. Rant over.Your suggestion to the OP is still probably valid though, even if I bicker, because by the power of maths you - or anybody else - can work out (assuming that you'd get 45mpg in the leon, and that the BMW computer's readout is accurate, which I might doubt):
11000 miles at 36mpg * £1.31/L = £1,819.70/yr
11000 miles at 45mpg * £1.41/L = £1,566.89/yr
So that's £250/yr. Well, that's better than nothing, and maybe it would pay for some of your insurance or something, but but it wouldn't take much to eat into that. You'd have savings in VED - no idea what this might be exactly, but I suspect a 325ci will be in the top bracket and the Leon will not be (~£150/yr?), so there's £125 in there maybe. Perhaps the insurance would be cheaper as well. It could add up, though I wouldn't like to guess at how much.
Just to be annoying, though - if my car (E46 BMW 330d) said 36mpg from the computer, I'd assume the result would actually be 31mpg. 11000 miles at 31mpg * £1.31/L = £2,113.20. So, if that's true, now you're saving £550/yr, which sounds to me like a better place to start, at least.
You'd need more data to be sure!
Matt UK said:
44 miles a day and you want to chop an 01 325ci for a £3k diesel? I wouldn't.
At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
I often see this kind of comment in relation to cheap diesels, and from my own point of view it's unfounded. Yes some diesel specific things could fail, but that's not a certainty. Lots of things on a petrol car can break too.At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
In my experience of 70k miles in VAG TDI's (1 Golf Mk4 PD130, 1 Galaxy PD115), nothing derv-specific thing has failed, and the Galaxy is now on 176k miles (we bought it on 115k). Sure lots of things have failed on the Galaxy - brake calipers, aircon pipes/condenser, some minor electrical bits - but nothing that wouldn't fail on the equivalent petrol.
This post is just to say that whilst you may hear lots of stories about failing diesels at this kind of price point, it's not impossible to find one that keeps on going.
The main problem is that you will probably want a more modern diesel so it isn't boring, in which case you will probably need to put a bit of money towards the car, which will probably negate the benefit of cheaper fuel anyway! I ended up putting £3k towards my 330d after trading in my Audi S4, but comparing fuel the audi cost £4k/annum in fuel and the BMW cost £2.6/annum, so I saved £1.4k per annum on fuel, therefore it took just over two years to save the initial outlay!! Ok this is a bit simplistic as obviously the consumables are cheaper on the BMW as well, but it proves the point that often sticking with what you have is cheaper!
Thanks all for your input. Interesting and valid points.
Perhaps you are right and for the actual saving I might be missing a trick by chopping it in. I expected (naively) that a diesel would be giving say 60mpg, but perhaps that is only true of the modern cars less than 5 years old, which are out of my price bracket.
I agree that driving the 325 sensibly has its drawbacks but even so, it is a lovely car to drive, whether slow or fast. When I pull away I get a nice 6 cylinder noise and not a tractor impression too. The 320 gives virtually the same fuel performance (and has done right back to the E30 3 series) as the bigger engines, so no point getting one of those. I wouldn't mind a 320d but the E92's still sound like tractors (and are beyond my budget) and the E46 ones (in my price range) ingested their swirl flaps and self destructed on a far too regular basis for me to take that risk.
I also agree that the trip computer is probably optomistic as it stands and I should do some real world calcs.
I could easily just go and buy a cheap Focus diesel, but as a petrolhead I can't bring myself to do it unless the car I drive has some flair. The sensible amongst you would say that 1 'favourite' car is enough, but as I spend 175 minutes of every week commuting, I want that to be in something I also like.
Out of interest still - are there any entertaining diesels for £3-4k though?????
Perhaps you are right and for the actual saving I might be missing a trick by chopping it in. I expected (naively) that a diesel would be giving say 60mpg, but perhaps that is only true of the modern cars less than 5 years old, which are out of my price bracket.
I agree that driving the 325 sensibly has its drawbacks but even so, it is a lovely car to drive, whether slow or fast. When I pull away I get a nice 6 cylinder noise and not a tractor impression too. The 320 gives virtually the same fuel performance (and has done right back to the E30 3 series) as the bigger engines, so no point getting one of those. I wouldn't mind a 320d but the E92's still sound like tractors (and are beyond my budget) and the E46 ones (in my price range) ingested their swirl flaps and self destructed on a far too regular basis for me to take that risk.
I also agree that the trip computer is probably optomistic as it stands and I should do some real world calcs.
I could easily just go and buy a cheap Focus diesel, but as a petrolhead I can't bring myself to do it unless the car I drive has some flair. The sensible amongst you would say that 1 'favourite' car is enough, but as I spend 175 minutes of every week commuting, I want that to be in something I also like.
Out of interest still - are there any entertaining diesels for £3-4k though?????
economy aside, i've driven an audi a3 1.9 TDI for a year, and some other 1.9 TDIs around the same time. Normally the 1.9 TDI (105bhp) is boring as all hell and sounds like a flippin tractor, not that much go either. However, the A3 i was driving was chipped to roughly 140 hp, and was a right laugh.
The audi suspension was much more geared toward comfort rather then sporty cornering, but the engine was fun as diesel gets. Any number of revs, put your foot down and it would explode in a burst of torque and tear forward. The day i got it, i managed to hit 110 mph multiple times in busy rushhour traffic, just doing small sprints. It also sounded a bit more growly then other 1.9 TDIs i've driven
Bottom line, if you get a diesel, make sure to get one that is chippable, and is fitted in a halfway nice to drive chassis. I loved that audi, even if it was a total pov-spec box and people thought you were a
because you have four rings on your carkey.
The audi suspension was much more geared toward comfort rather then sporty cornering, but the engine was fun as diesel gets. Any number of revs, put your foot down and it would explode in a burst of torque and tear forward. The day i got it, i managed to hit 110 mph multiple times in busy rushhour traffic, just doing small sprints. It also sounded a bit more growly then other 1.9 TDIs i've driven
Bottom line, if you get a diesel, make sure to get one that is chippable, and is fitted in a halfway nice to drive chassis. I loved that audi, even if it was a total pov-spec box and people thought you were a
because you have four rings on your carkey.mk1matt said:
Matt UK said:
44 miles a day and you want to chop an 01 325ci for a £3k diesel? I wouldn't.
At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
I often see this kind of comment in relation to cheap diesels, and from my own point of view it's unfounded. Yes some diesel specific things could fail, but that's not a certainty. Lots of things on a petrol car can break too.At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
In my experience of 70k miles in VAG TDI's (1 Golf Mk4 PD130, 1 Galaxy PD115), nothing derv-specific thing has failed, and the Galaxy is now on 176k miles (we bought it on 115k). Sure lots of things have failed on the Galaxy - brake calipers, aircon pipes/condenser, some minor electrical bits - but nothing that wouldn't fail on the equivalent petrol.
This post is just to say that whilst you may hear lots of stories about failing diesels at this kind of price point, it's not impossible to find one that keeps on going.
So whilst it's all a bit of pot luck, the minimal annual savings on offer could be swallowed whole quite easily.
Plus, it's not all about spreadsheets - the OP seems to really like his current car and it's always worth paying out a smidge of extra for something you really like. It's good for the soul
IMO, keep the 325ci Edited by Matt UK on Wednesday 30th May 11:17
Tough call - your budget (as with all budgets) will dictate what is achievable, but is it right?
I traded my E46 325ti last year because I felt 31mpg (actual) was getting costly. Fine car, lovely to drive, practical etc etc but part of me was waiting for the next large bill, over and above the insurance/VED and routine servicing.
Also, it was time to try open air motoring. So, MR2 we go - now getting 41mpg (actual), lower servicing costs etc. Bit of a bugger on the practicality side of things though.
However, wifey has now annexed the family Jazz (in preference to the Smax) which I also think is a hoot to drive. Petrol, low insurance, low VED, 46mpg and 5 doors. Perfect combination.
But there are times when I miss that 6 pot low bass note...
I traded my E46 325ti last year because I felt 31mpg (actual) was getting costly. Fine car, lovely to drive, practical etc etc but part of me was waiting for the next large bill, over and above the insurance/VED and routine servicing.
Also, it was time to try open air motoring. So, MR2 we go - now getting 41mpg (actual), lower servicing costs etc. Bit of a bugger on the practicality side of things though.
However, wifey has now annexed the family Jazz (in preference to the Smax) which I also think is a hoot to drive. Petrol, low insurance, low VED, 46mpg and 5 doors. Perfect combination.
But there are times when I miss that 6 pot low bass note...
Sadly I don't there are any interesting or fun diesels and certainly not at this price point. As so far nobody has really put a good diesel engine into an exciting car.
An MG ZR diesel is in budget. The look good for a hatch and will still handle as well and as fun as any other ZR pretty much. The L series is a nice engine and can be mapped to acceptable levels of performance.
The same is true for 306 diesels and Golfs of various flavours. In most cases the engine can be perked up, but is. MK4 Golf really a fun car regardless of the engine?
You might find bigger cars like French barges or a diesel Mondeo in budget. All good cars but again not really exciting even with petrol engines.
An MG ZR diesel is in budget. The look good for a hatch and will still handle as well and as fun as any other ZR pretty much. The L series is a nice engine and can be mapped to acceptable levels of performance.
The same is true for 306 diesels and Golfs of various flavours. In most cases the engine can be perked up, but is. MK4 Golf really a fun car regardless of the engine?
You might find bigger cars like French barges or a diesel Mondeo in budget. All good cars but again not really exciting even with petrol engines.
Matt UK said:
44 miles a day and you want to chop an 01 325ci for a £3k diesel? I wouldn't.
At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
At that price point you may well be looking at bills which easily negate the small savings you may make in fuel costs (once you factor in the extra cost at the pump).
Proceed with extreme caution IMO.
This!
44 miles a day, 5 days a week, for 50 weeks of the year, is only 11,000 miles.
Your BMW should be unburstably reliable for many more years, and a switch to a 50mpg diesel would save you about 380 litres of fuel per year, or about £10 a week.
Your mileage isn't high enough, in my opinion, to justify the costs of a DERV. These days, petrol is the reliable way to motor.
300bhp/ton said:
The same is true for 306 diesels and Golfs of various flavours. In most cases the engine can be perked up, but is. MK4 Golf really a fun car regardless of the engine?
On topic of a golf, why not go for a Seat Leon (second version, not the first one)? I found it drove pretty damn well around bends and such, sport seats are excellent. While certainly not the pinacle of desire, i think a leon 1.9 TDI with a remap would be plenty of fun for me.Vitorio said:
300bhp/ton said:
The same is true for 306 diesels and Golfs of various flavours. In most cases the engine can be perked up, but is. MK4 Golf really a fun car regardless of the engine?
On topic of a golf, why not go for a Seat Leon (second version, not the first one)? I found it drove pretty damn well around bends and such, sport seats are excellent. While certainly not the pinacle of desire, i think a leon 1.9 TDI with a remap would be plenty of fun for me.Personally I think a good (mapped maybe) Laon 1.9Tdi would be pretty much equal fun to a similar powered petrol one (2.0/1.8T). Ok the engine would feel and sound a little different, but that's it - different, rather than worse.
So if you'd be happy with a petrol one of these, then I see no reason why a diesel one wouldn't do just fine. The only real downer is, as a rule diesel will cost more to buy, usually have a lot more miles on them, often in worse condition (due to the miles) and sometimes lesser a spec vs a petrol powered one.
The flip side is, if you won't be fine with a petrol SEAT Leon (I personally wouldn't), then no there aren't really any interesting diesels at all and certainly not at this price range.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff