Redundancy help please
Discussion
Hi,
I will try and post just the facts as I know it rather than my opinion. But just wanted some off the record advise please.
I work for a large employer with over 12000 staff. In December I was comended for my work and my job remit was to be expanded. A wage review was to follow in March. This did not happen.
3 months ago my boss employed another member of staff to join our team of 3, with the same pay, doing the same thing 4 days out of 5 but with a very slightly different job title.
I have worked for them for 2 years and 3 months and was due my bonus in this september of £5000 to be paid 31st december.
Stipulations of bonus does say have to be employed on 31st dec to get it.
My salary is 25.5k/annum and I have 3 month notice period.
Yesterday I was told that my job was at risk of redundancy. After I questioned them I was told it doesn't exist any longer following a departmental reviewand I would have to go through consultation.
the other worker has not been selected for consulatation.
I haven't been given any more details until my meeting next week.
Today my boss says to me he wants a meeting at 5pm today to discuss a without prejudice offer. I said what does this mean, and he basically said that it means that as long as a lawyer signs it; that I would get my contractual notice paid up front gross and I wouldn't have to work my notice period.
I asked that if I went through consultation that would take 3 weeks so I would be missing out on 3 weeks money he said that would not be included.
No mention of any compensation for waiving my right to a tribunal.
Just wondering what your opinions are on this.
Any help would be great thanks.
Oh and as far as I know only a handful of people out of 12000 are being made redundant.
I will try and post just the facts as I know it rather than my opinion. But just wanted some off the record advise please.
I work for a large employer with over 12000 staff. In December I was comended for my work and my job remit was to be expanded. A wage review was to follow in March. This did not happen.
3 months ago my boss employed another member of staff to join our team of 3, with the same pay, doing the same thing 4 days out of 5 but with a very slightly different job title.
I have worked for them for 2 years and 3 months and was due my bonus in this september of £5000 to be paid 31st december.
Stipulations of bonus does say have to be employed on 31st dec to get it.
My salary is 25.5k/annum and I have 3 month notice period.
Yesterday I was told that my job was at risk of redundancy. After I questioned them I was told it doesn't exist any longer following a departmental reviewand I would have to go through consultation.
the other worker has not been selected for consulatation.
I haven't been given any more details until my meeting next week.
Today my boss says to me he wants a meeting at 5pm today to discuss a without prejudice offer. I said what does this mean, and he basically said that it means that as long as a lawyer signs it; that I would get my contractual notice paid up front gross and I wouldn't have to work my notice period.
I asked that if I went through consultation that would take 3 weeks so I would be missing out on 3 weeks money he said that would not be included.
No mention of any compensation for waiving my right to a tribunal.
Just wondering what your opinions are on this.
Any help would be great thanks.
Oh and as far as I know only a handful of people out of 12000 are being made redundant.
If his intention is to make you an offer, then make sure the offer is right for you, the offer will most likely be right for the company ie getting rid of you for as little as possible with you waiving all rights to contest it later.
Id suggest not signing anything.
It does sound like a rather odd situation. Is it likely they cant afford to pay your bonus?
Perhaps you could steer the conversation to find out and perhaps make them an offer on the bonus, ie only taking part of it and taking part of it as time off or at a later date.
Id suggest not signing anything.
It does sound like a rather odd situation. Is it likely they cant afford to pay your bonus?
Perhaps you could steer the conversation to find out and perhaps make them an offer on the bonus, ie only taking part of it and taking part of it as time off or at a later date.
I'm only speculating, as I will have more details later. But I do know that my boss as part of his contract promised to make x amount o savings for the department this year which he has not done. so getting rid of a few people off the wage bill would bring him closer to that target. But I am only speculating on that point and will find out more about the selection criteria and the review that took place if I go through the consultation.
I worked for an employer a few years ago worked there for 23 months, just had my review received a pay rise, commended on my work and within a week my role was put at risk...
I went through the 4 week consultation period and part way through they offered my a tax free salary plus bonus payout to go quietly.
It sounds very similar... accept that being at risk means you're going and get what you can that would be my advice.
I went through the 4 week consultation period and part way through they offered my a tax free salary plus bonus payout to go quietly.
It sounds very similar... accept that being at risk means you're going and get what you can that would be my advice.
My 2p OP please do not take offence its nothing personal.
Sounds to me from my experience of these things that there is something missing from the story, either something the OP isn't telling us or that the employer hasn't told the OP. For a redundancy to be fair then anyone with a broadly similar role has to be in scope of the consultation and resulting reorganisation. If it is just you then this suggests that only you do that job in your company and nobody else does anything remotely similar. They should state why they are making your role redundant.
Assuming that you are the only person in that role then it is a positive thing to be offered a compromise agreement as you basically get a minimum of your note period salary tax free if its under 30k whilst not having to work that time. It is also easier in reality to find another job when not in a job than it is to move from one job directly to another. However, you do not have to accept the basic and compromise agreement time should be viewed as a "if you don't ask you don't get" time. Usually employers will agree to fund some training to help you find a new job, outplacement support and various other things if you ask for it.
However, the employer could also be telling you by the back door that they are not actually happy with your performance. If you get rid of someone through redundancy then you cannot re-staff their role as legally you have said it isn't required. If you go for a compromise agreement instead then you can so often employers will use them for this purpose. My advice would be once you are offered something like this take it and take as much as you can as digging your heels in won't help and you probably don't have a future in the company.
The point to really think about though is whether the CA includes an agreed reference. If you know the company will give you a good reference then don't go for one. If you are unsure then you should. The problem with agreed references is that they are obvious to new employers and as such new employers may jump to conclusions as to why you were offered a compromise.
Sounds to me from my experience of these things that there is something missing from the story, either something the OP isn't telling us or that the employer hasn't told the OP. For a redundancy to be fair then anyone with a broadly similar role has to be in scope of the consultation and resulting reorganisation. If it is just you then this suggests that only you do that job in your company and nobody else does anything remotely similar. They should state why they are making your role redundant.
Assuming that you are the only person in that role then it is a positive thing to be offered a compromise agreement as you basically get a minimum of your note period salary tax free if its under 30k whilst not having to work that time. It is also easier in reality to find another job when not in a job than it is to move from one job directly to another. However, you do not have to accept the basic and compromise agreement time should be viewed as a "if you don't ask you don't get" time. Usually employers will agree to fund some training to help you find a new job, outplacement support and various other things if you ask for it.
However, the employer could also be telling you by the back door that they are not actually happy with your performance. If you get rid of someone through redundancy then you cannot re-staff their role as legally you have said it isn't required. If you go for a compromise agreement instead then you can so often employers will use them for this purpose. My advice would be once you are offered something like this take it and take as much as you can as digging your heels in won't help and you probably don't have a future in the company.
The point to really think about though is whether the CA includes an agreed reference. If you know the company will give you a good reference then don't go for one. If you are unsure then you should. The problem with agreed references is that they are obvious to new employers and as such new employers may jump to conclusions as to why you were offered a compromise.
Hi. I should make it clear that I am not the only person to be made redundant. There are a number of people. I don't know how many for sure, but it sounds like a handful. They seem to be selected on a LIFO basis from what I know.
As regards to performance, I don't know if this is the reason. If it is, then I have had no official complaint about performance in the past, in fact I have been complimented on it by him.
They have told me that the reasons would be provided in detail should I opt for consultation.
I should add that it seemed that little care seemed to be made with the offer I was given, i.e it was given on a crumpled up piece of paper, my age was incorrect on the document, the company's standard redundancy enhancement calculation was incorrect.
The other points I should state is that I was told by them that holiday pay would be based upon the date I leave the company and it wouldn't include my contractual notice period in the calculation. Is this correct?
I also now want redundancy, because it is obvious that the company does not want to employ me and it wasn't a great job anyway.
So i'm worried that if I fight my case too strongly during consultation that it might get retracted. Is this likely?
Any help would be great. Thanks
As regards to performance, I don't know if this is the reason. If it is, then I have had no official complaint about performance in the past, in fact I have been complimented on it by him.
They have told me that the reasons would be provided in detail should I opt for consultation.
I should add that it seemed that little care seemed to be made with the offer I was given, i.e it was given on a crumpled up piece of paper, my age was incorrect on the document, the company's standard redundancy enhancement calculation was incorrect.
The other points I should state is that I was told by them that holiday pay would be based upon the date I leave the company and it wouldn't include my contractual notice period in the calculation. Is this correct?
I also now want redundancy, because it is obvious that the company does not want to employ me and it wasn't a great job anyway.
So i'm worried that if I fight my case too strongly during consultation that it might get retracted. Is this likely?
Any help would be great. Thanks
ralphrj said:
If you are going to get the same amount under the redundancy as you would via the compromise agreement then I can't see why you would take it (or rather, why your employer thinks you would take it).
Well the difference I think is about £600. Because I would get a tax free notice payment as oppossed to a tax payable one, but on the other side, I would forgoe my regular wages I would get having gone through the consultation period of 3-4 weeks.Musashi10 said:
The other points I should state is that I was told by them that holiday pay would be based upon the date I leave the company and it wouldn't include my contractual notice period in the calculation. Is this correct?
I also now want redundancy, because it is obvious that the company does not want to employ me and it wasn't a great job anyway.
So i'm worried that if I fight my case too strongly during consultation that it might get retracted. Is this likely?
Holiday pay is usually based on the day you leave because you are not working your contractual notice period and therefore are not accruing the leave you would have done should you have worked it. However, that is not to say you can't ask for it as part of your settlement, like i said if you don't ask you don't get.I also now want redundancy, because it is obvious that the company does not want to employ me and it wasn't a great job anyway.
So i'm worried that if I fight my case too strongly during consultation that it might get retracted. Is this likely?
Good for you for being resolved for the redundancy, once you settle that the company no longer wants you there is no point in staying. Make a clear break and use the time you will be paid for to find something better.
If you fight your case strongly through consultation and then are still made redundant they could make you work your notice, they might not but they could. IMO if you are offered a compromise now, take it and negotiate the best package you can. The company has to pay your legal fees so go and see an employment solicitor before agreeing the makeup of the agreement. You will have to see one to finalise it so start now.
Musashi10 said:
Well the difference I think is about £600. Because I would get a tax free notice payment as oppossed to a tax payable one, but on the other side, I would forgoe my regular wages I would get having gone through the consultation period of 3-4 weeks.
Not necessarily, ask for those wages as part of your settlement as they would be paying them to you anyway if you decide to go through consultation so its no additional money to themcraigjm said:
Holiday pay is usually based on the day you leave because you are not working your contractual notice period and therefore are not accruing the leave you would have done should you have worked it. However, that is not to say you can't ask for it as part of your settlement, like i said if you don't ask you don't get.
Good for you for being resolved for the redundancy, once you settle that the company no longer wants you there is no point in staying. Make a clear break and use the time you will be paid for to find something better.
If you fight your case strongly through consultation and then are still made redundant they could make you work your notice, they might not but they could. IMO if you are offered a compromise now, take it and negotiate the best package you can. The company has to pay your legal fees so go and see an employment solicitor before agreeing the makeup of the agreement. You will have to see one to finalise it so start now.
Do not forget to get an agreed wording reference that both sides are happy with in the CA, and signed off.Good for you for being resolved for the redundancy, once you settle that the company no longer wants you there is no point in staying. Make a clear break and use the time you will be paid for to find something better.
If you fight your case strongly through consultation and then are still made redundant they could make you work your notice, they might not but they could. IMO if you are offered a compromise now, take it and negotiate the best package you can. The company has to pay your legal fees so go and see an employment solicitor before agreeing the makeup of the agreement. You will have to see one to finalise it so start now.
randlemarcus said:
Do not forget to get an agreed wording reference that both sides are happy with in the CA, and signed off.
I wouldn't agree with that depending on the situation. If you are leaving under a cloud and would therefore get a poor reference I would agree but if you leave amicably then I would forego the agreed reference. Agreed references can look odd to new employers. If a new employer asks for the following -when did they work there from and to and what was their sickness record?
and they receive a scripted three or four paragraphs that don't mention both alarm bells are ringing.
odyssey2200 said:
To sign a compromise agreement, there has to be something to make it worth your while, or why would you waive any rights you may have?
Seek proper advice, ACAS are a good source of advice and Free.
Three months salary tax free without having to work for it is the basic "worth your while". What people have to remember when they are in such a position is that they are not in the driving seat, the employer is. Seek proper advice, ACAS are a good source of advice and Free.
Musashi10 said:
Just to confirm the company will only pay sol fees as to a maximum of £250 exc of vat.
I'm not sure if that would cover a couple of meetings with the sols?
thats fairly standard and would usually cover you for one hour before agreement and one hour to look at the agreement once drafted.I'm not sure if that would cover a couple of meetings with the sols?
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