Discussion
A big milestone in my rebuild is coming up. In a month or so, I will be able to roll my car out of the garage. This is the first time the car has moved on its own wheels since at least 2001. The big question is "what wheels and tyres do I go for?" It was a toss up between period minilites/ Compo MLs , or wires. I finally plumped for wires.
The decision is complicated by the fact that the car came with 5, rather tatty, but apparently saveable, painted wires of unknown origin. Since the car came in boxes, I didn't even know whether the wheels were actually off the car or had just been collected by previous owners.
Also I have a set of what I thought were newish splines. No idea if they are shot or not.
So, here's the problem. My car rolled out of Blackpool with 4.5-15j wires (and optional heater!) according to the build sheet. I don't know if these are them or not. I trial fitted them all on one rear hub, with the handbrake on and they (probably) all have knoackered splines. So they need replacing. As far as I know, rebuilding them is not worth the cost.
What size do I go for. I believe 5.5j 15s are now recommended for alloys, due to modern tyres, does this apply to wires too?
What is the offset we need for the vixen on wires?
And what tyre size is favoured?
Sorry for the rooky questions, but I have no wheel arches to measure against as yet and nothing original to gauge it against, so any expertise from someone who already has the answers would be much appreciate.
Cheers
Matt
The decision is complicated by the fact that the car came with 5, rather tatty, but apparently saveable, painted wires of unknown origin. Since the car came in boxes, I didn't even know whether the wheels were actually off the car or had just been collected by previous owners.
Also I have a set of what I thought were newish splines. No idea if they are shot or not.
So, here's the problem. My car rolled out of Blackpool with 4.5-15j wires (and optional heater!) according to the build sheet. I don't know if these are them or not. I trial fitted them all on one rear hub, with the handbrake on and they (probably) all have knoackered splines. So they need replacing. As far as I know, rebuilding them is not worth the cost.
What size do I go for. I believe 5.5j 15s are now recommended for alloys, due to modern tyres, does this apply to wires too?
What is the offset we need for the vixen on wires?
And what tyre size is favoured?
Sorry for the rooky questions, but I have no wheel arches to measure against as yet and nothing original to gauge it against, so any expertise from someone who already has the answers would be much appreciate.
Cheers
Matt
Edited by Astacus on Friday 1st June 20:01
Edited by Astacus on Friday 1st June 20:02
ausi steve said:
I notice you refer to "build sheet" for your car, can you tell me how you came across it, I would love to be able to obtain the one for my 3000M?
Steve
David Gerald's have copies of all the build sheets for early TVRs. I don't know how late they go, but give them arming and I am sure they will help you out. My build sheet says, where the car was sold from, what colour it was , who the customer was and what options it came with.Steve
RCK974X said:
My be a silly question ... are the splines the 'bolt on' types or are they built in to the hub ?
{only asking because Triumph Spitfire etc (and TR6's ?? ) had adaptors so they could have steel or wires)
The car has TR6 type hubs front and back, with a flat face and bolt on splines. There were also 2 ally spacers, which appear to be necessary to fit the rear wheels and clear the hubs{only asking because Triumph Spitfire etc (and TR6's ?? ) had adaptors so they could have steel or wires)
OK, so at least you have the choice of going back to alloys, and as far as I know you can still get the adaptors refurbished ....but as you say, not cheap.
In case it helps - I remember the Jag owners at car meetings telling me wires are pretty but were typically a bugger to balance and keep clean, and alloys are a lot easier....
In case it helps - I remember the Jag owners at car meetings telling me wires are pretty but were typically a bugger to balance and keep clean, and alloys are a lot easier....
Edited by RCK974X on Sunday 3rd June 00:20
A quick update, MWS International make many types of wire wheels. They do two sets specifically listed for the "Vixen 1600" being 4.5x15 (original fitment on my car) with a backspacing of 87mm and 5x15 (as an option) with back spacing of 83mm. They also list various 5.5 x 15 wheels as suitable for various cars.
They do 5.5 x 15 with 47.5 mm, 73mm, 83mm, 89mm, 95.5mm and 105mm back spacing.
Choices..........
They do 5.5 x 15 with 47.5 mm, 73mm, 83mm, 89mm, 95.5mm and 105mm back spacing.
Choices..........
You also have the quantity of Spokes to consider...42, 56 or 72 from memory??
pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
Edited by heightswitch on Friday 8th June 18:14
heightswitch said:
You also have the quantity of Spokes to consider...42, 56 or 72 from memory??
pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
Hmm, yes. Captain vacillation, that's me pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
I agree with you about the painted wires looking more period. I find the chrome ones look a bit too bling for me.
heightswitch said:
You also have the quantity of Spokes to consider...42, 56 or 72 from memory??
pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
Before I reply to OP can I make an observation. I cannot believe that wheelie bins had been invented when Neillie had a TVR in one piece and capable of being driven, all be it not very far, I thought they were invented in the last 15 years.pic of original fitment. 72 spokes are stronger but always look busier on the car.
If money is no object then Borrani's look a lot nicer. I think mine were 42 spoke
Personally I don't like all of the maintenance which go with wires, especially chromed steel wires...a lot of them are also of spurious quality and manufacture..I think blasted and metal sprayed originals without the chrome finish look much more period if you are set on them. hubs wear, splines wear, pigs to balance, tubes or tubeless wires etc etc.
Stevie will probably be along to give his perspective..I know he quite likes them.
Edited by heightswitch on Friday 8th June 18:14
I do not have any strong feelings about wire wheels, blingy or not. I think the wheels fitted to the car should be appropriate, you would not fit Woolfrace to a Ferrari 250 SWB, nor would you fit spokes to a Sagaris.
I fited wires to mine because they are in my opinion the correct wheel both for the car and the period.
It seems unless you have won Euromillions that you have 2 easy choices of supplier, MWS or Dayton. the most appropriate in my opinion for your Vixen would be 5" or 6". In spite of what Nellie says the major problem with wire wheels is punctures, not caused by nails etc but by the inner tubes chaffing (despite the spoke protectors) on the heads of the spokes. I have had mine on for well over 20 years and NEVER had any balance problems, clean them with gunk and hosepipe occasionally. I grease the splines so no wear and only ever had one puncture and that was a poor rim seal when new tyres fitted.
So why did I choose blingly oversized clownlike looking wheels when just ordinary rusty skinny weedy looking wheels would do? Answer, to overcome ALL the Nellie listed problems (apart from the bling). To evercome the puncture problem I chose the 6" wheels because they are centre laced and therefore can be made tubeless, I check tyre pressure at least once a year and seldom put any air in. I have never had either a problem getting them balanced nor them going out of balance and occasionally on private roads do speeds in excess of 100mph. The other reason I chose these wheels is because they have stainless steel spokes so no rusting round the seats, rusting causes the spokes to eventually loose tension and need expensive resetting. MWS now do fully stainless wheels, deep joy but sadly I didn,t win Euromillions either.
Are there any down sides? Yes. They are a tight fit in the arches, especially with 185/70/15 tyres and I did have to machine a minute ammount off the adaptors to marginally reduce rear track and I need to run slightly more than standard negative camber on the back for same reason. They are heavy but all wheels are heavy when you fit a tyre and I do get a small ammount of piston knockback due to the offet on the rims but only people who have never driven a classic ever notice it, Its something I have got used to.
So Mattie your choices seem to be MWS XW 459 or XW5721, or Dayton D465 or D459. In practical use the puncture/tubelass issue in my opinion is paramount for a road car.
sTeVieR
thegamekeeper said:
Before I reply to OP can I make an observation. I cannot believe that wheelie bins had been invented when Neillie had a TVR in one piece and capable of being driven, all be it not very far, I thought they were invented in the last 15 years.
I do not have any strong feelings about wire wheels, blingy or not. I think the wheels fitted to the car should be appropriate, you would not fit Woolfrace to a Ferrari 250 SWB, nor would you fit spokes to a Sagaris.
I fited wires to mine because they are in my opinion the correct wheel both for the car and the period.
It seems unless you have won Euromillions that you have 2 easy choices of supplier, MWS or Dayton. the most appropriate in my opinion for your Vixen would be 5" or 6". In spite of what Nellie says the major problem with wire wheels is punctures, not caused by nails etc but by the inner tubes chaffing (despite the spoke protectors) on the heads of the spokes. I have had mine on for well over 20 years and NEVER had any balance problems, clean them with gunk and hosepipe occasionally. I grease the splines so no wear and only ever had one puncture and that was a poor rim seal when new tyres fitted.
So why did I choose blingly oversized clownlike looking wheels when just ordinary rusty skinny weedy looking wheels would do? Answer, to overcome ALL the Nellie listed problems (apart from the bling). To evercome the puncture problem I chose the 6" wheels because they are centre laced and therefore can be made tubeless, I check tyre pressure at least once a year and seldom put any air in. I have never had either a problem getting them balanced nor them going out of balance and occasionally on private roads do speeds in excess of 100mph. The other reason I chose these wheels is because they have stainless steel spokes so no rusting round the seats, rusting causes the spokes to eventually loose tension and need expensive resetting. MWS now do fully stainless wheels, deep joy but sadly I didn,t win Euromillions either.
Are there any down sides? Yes. They are a tight fit in the arches, especially with 185/70/15 tyres and I did have to machine a minute ammount off the adaptors to marginally reduce rear track and I need to run slightly more than standard negative camber on the back for same reason. They are heavy but all wheels are heavy when you fit a tyre and I do get a small ammount of piston knockback due to the offet on the rims but only people who have never driven a classic ever notice it, Its something I have got used to.
So Mattie your choices seem to be MWS XW 459 or XW5721, or Dayton D465 or D459. In practical use the puncture/tubelass issue in my opinion is paramount for a road car.
sTeVieR
Many thanks Steve. Exactly what I needed to hear. I am pretty much set on the 15" MWS wheels. My opinion on "blingness" or otherwise is largely influenced by the extra £400.00 I would have to find for the chrome variety (I do not have any strong feelings about wire wheels, blingy or not. I think the wheels fitted to the car should be appropriate, you would not fit Woolfrace to a Ferrari 250 SWB, nor would you fit spokes to a Sagaris.
I fited wires to mine because they are in my opinion the correct wheel both for the car and the period.
It seems unless you have won Euromillions that you have 2 easy choices of supplier, MWS or Dayton. the most appropriate in my opinion for your Vixen would be 5" or 6". In spite of what Nellie says the major problem with wire wheels is punctures, not caused by nails etc but by the inner tubes chaffing (despite the spoke protectors) on the heads of the spokes. I have had mine on for well over 20 years and NEVER had any balance problems, clean them with gunk and hosepipe occasionally. I grease the splines so no wear and only ever had one puncture and that was a poor rim seal when new tyres fitted.
So why did I choose blingly oversized clownlike looking wheels when just ordinary rusty skinny weedy looking wheels would do? Answer, to overcome ALL the Nellie listed problems (apart from the bling). To evercome the puncture problem I chose the 6" wheels because they are centre laced and therefore can be made tubeless, I check tyre pressure at least once a year and seldom put any air in. I have never had either a problem getting them balanced nor them going out of balance and occasionally on private roads do speeds in excess of 100mph. The other reason I chose these wheels is because they have stainless steel spokes so no rusting round the seats, rusting causes the spokes to eventually loose tension and need expensive resetting. MWS now do fully stainless wheels, deep joy but sadly I didn,t win Euromillions either.
Are there any down sides? Yes. They are a tight fit in the arches, especially with 185/70/15 tyres and I did have to machine a minute ammount off the adaptors to marginally reduce rear track and I need to run slightly more than standard negative camber on the back for same reason. They are heavy but all wheels are heavy when you fit a tyre and I do get a small ammount of piston knockback due to the offet on the rims but only people who have never driven a classic ever notice it, Its something I have got used to.
So Mattie your choices seem to be MWS XW 459 or XW5721, or Dayton D465 or D459. In practical use the puncture/tubelass issue in my opinion is paramount for a road car.
sTeVieR
) in reality. I have never had any issues with balancing wires either. I don't trust tyre changes to the Quickfit fitters, I get them done by a garage in town who also do motor cycle work, and so have the experience of handling wire wheels.
thegamekeeper said:
I wouldn,t take my wheelbarrow to Quickf**t. Your next problem is tyres. What size are you thinking of fitting?
Still rather at the head scratching phase on this. There was a thread a while back on Vixen tyres which gave the approximate rolling radius (646mm?) of the OE set up, but I am not sure how easy it is to get close to that on 15" wheels. I am pretty much a novice when it comes to calculating optimal tyre size, but it looks to me like 65 series tyres are whats needed for 5" wheels, and they will likely be 185/65 15s, which come up about 25mm smaller circumference by back of fag packet calculation. I think this is about a 4% error on the speedo. I suspect this is pretty much within the error of the speedo and in practice will matter little from that point of view.Whats your take on it?
I hereby bore you rigid with the proper calculation - tyre sizes ARE set so that you can calculate its effective diameter, therefore turns per mile, therefore overall gearing with the diff ratio.
Turns per mile calculation -
tyre specs are WDT/ASR-WHS (e.g 185/70x15)
Where:
WDT = Tread width mm
ASR = Aspect Ratio
WHS = Wheel size ins
Rolling Dia = 3.14159 X [(WDT x ASR/1270) + WHS ]
i.e dia of wheel + two hieghts of tyre......
turns per mile = 65261/Rolling dia
(63360 = inches per mile, 65261 is 3% bigger)
The 63360 does not allow for tyre wall distortion, so the turns per mile would be too low.
Turns per mile calculation -
tyre specs are WDT/ASR-WHS (e.g 185/70x15)
Where:
WDT = Tread width mm
ASR = Aspect Ratio
WHS = Wheel size ins
Rolling Dia = 3.14159 X [(WDT x ASR/1270) + WHS ]
i.e dia of wheel + two hieghts of tyre......
turns per mile = 65261/Rolling dia
(63360 = inches per mile, 65261 is 3% bigger)
The 63360 does not allow for tyre wall distortion, so the turns per mile would be too low.
Edited by RCK974X on Thursday 14th June 01:06
Gassing Station | TVR Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff