Tangible gains from a "better" bike ?
Discussion
I currently ride a 2011 Specialized Allez Sport. The only upgrades I have made are some Fulcrum Racing 5 wheels and Continental GP4000s tyres (oh and some SwissStop pads and SPD's).
It is my first road bike and I've had it just over a year. I've really got into riding over the last 14 months (both road and MTB) and found the Allez to be a solid and dependable bike. The only bits I don't like are the Sora shifters (stupid thumb button to down-shift, which can't be reached from the drops) and also changing from the small to big chainrings (34/50) sometimes leads to a sloppy change.
The tyres were an immediately obvious improvement, but I've only done a couple of rides on the new wheels, however initial impressions are very good and they do seem to have improved the bike in general (less rotational mass, more lively steering).
I know all about the N+1 rule, but should I really be thinking about my next bike already? I don't race, just weekend (and occasionally mid-week) longish and hilly rides (typically 50-80 miles). I also did my first sportive last month called the Fred Whitton and would like to do some more.
What tangible gains would there be from one of the popular bikes around the 1500-2000 mark? I'm pretty strong climbing (I weigh 65kg) but can struggle holding speed on flats (down on power I guess), so don't *need* a lighter bike, but I guess a bike weighing a couple of kg less will make climbing even easier? Not sure how heavy the Allez is, must be at least 9kg.
It is my first road bike and I've had it just over a year. I've really got into riding over the last 14 months (both road and MTB) and found the Allez to be a solid and dependable bike. The only bits I don't like are the Sora shifters (stupid thumb button to down-shift, which can't be reached from the drops) and also changing from the small to big chainrings (34/50) sometimes leads to a sloppy change.
The tyres were an immediately obvious improvement, but I've only done a couple of rides on the new wheels, however initial impressions are very good and they do seem to have improved the bike in general (less rotational mass, more lively steering).
I know all about the N+1 rule, but should I really be thinking about my next bike already? I don't race, just weekend (and occasionally mid-week) longish and hilly rides (typically 50-80 miles). I also did my first sportive last month called the Fred Whitton and would like to do some more.
What tangible gains would there be from one of the popular bikes around the 1500-2000 mark? I'm pretty strong climbing (I weigh 65kg) but can struggle holding speed on flats (down on power I guess), so don't *need* a lighter bike, but I guess a bike weighing a couple of kg less will make climbing even easier? Not sure how heavy the Allez is, must be at least 9kg.
racerbob said:
I guess you've gained the most by upgrading the wheels / tyres. If you are comfortable on it why change it at this stage, maybe better to spend the money on better shoes or kit in general, it all helps you feel like you are going easier / faster ?
I'm using some fairly basic Shimano SPD shoes (recessed cleat) and mountain bike shimano pedals. I have been considering some proper road shoes/pedals as my shoes aren't the best fit. nammynake said:
I'm using some fairly basic Shimano SPD shoes (recessed cleat) and mountain bike shimano pedals. I have been considering some proper road shoes/pedals as my shoes aren't the best fit.
Ok well I reckon shoes / pedals can make a big difference in terms of comfort and riding style. I would look at specialized shoes, carbon sole if you can afford them and Look pedals (keo) I've used this combo for 4 yrs now (racing / training ) no probs, I really can tell the difference when I ride my winter bike with Carnac shoes, much heavier.racerbob said:
Ok well I reckon shoes / pedals can make a big difference in terms of comfort and riding style. I would look at specialized shoes, carbon sole if you can afford them and Look pedals (keo) I've used this combo for 4 yrs now (racing / training ) no probs, I really can tell the difference when I ride my winter bike with Carnac shoes, much heavier.
Thanks I shall look into that. There's a Specialized shop not far from me in Harrogate, so I might go and try them for size. The main reason I'm still using SPD's is because I wasn't sure I would make it up steep hills without walking - those road shoes don't look well designed for walking in! Fortunately I managed all of the climbs on the Fred Whitton (Honister, Harknott, Wrynose) without stopping or walking which I was pretty chuffed with, so I'm confident that I can get up most things now.nammynake said:
Thanks I shall look into that. There's a Specialized shop not far from me in Harrogate, so I might go and try them for size. The main reason I'm still using SPD's is because I wasn't sure I would make it up steep hills without walking - those road shoes don't look well designed for walking in! Fortunately I managed all of the climbs on the Fred Whitton (Honister, Harknott, Wrynose) without stopping or walking which I was pretty chuffed with, so I'm confident that I can get up most things now.
Hmm yes, it is a bit 'lumpy' around there if I recall, lovely part of the world though there is no point buying things that make you feel faster like shoes and pedals when the fundamental problem is the frame. the benefits from a top quality alu frame or a carbon frame will be immense. I went from the boardman (a reasonable alu frame) to the Cervelo and the difference was huge, on the first ride it felt like I had just lost 15kgs thus I think you will really benefit from a quality frame that has more aggressive geometry.
the allez is pretty much the default sportive bike these days and they are undoubtedly comfortable over distance but it might be worth trying something thats just a bit more racey, something that can transfer your power a bit sharper and a bit more efficiently. the gains from shoes and pedals will be amrginal compared to a high end framset. I'd have a look at the Cannondale CAAD10 or the Supersix or a Ribble Stealth.
My money would go on the immense new Planet X N2A though, its £2K but has Sram Force and looks awesome. i was eyeing this up before the cervelo and it just didnt come out soon enough for me! http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/CBPXN2AFOR52/p...
the allez is pretty much the default sportive bike these days and they are undoubtedly comfortable over distance but it might be worth trying something thats just a bit more racey, something that can transfer your power a bit sharper and a bit more efficiently. the gains from shoes and pedals will be amrginal compared to a high end framset. I'd have a look at the Cannondale CAAD10 or the Supersix or a Ribble Stealth.
My money would go on the immense new Planet X N2A though, its £2K but has Sram Force and looks awesome. i was eyeing this up before the cervelo and it just didnt come out soon enough for me! http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/CBPXN2AFOR52/p...
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th June 19:45
Yes you will be faster. I have a liking for the way that Specialized frames handle and have built an SL3 after a fling on an old Allez. Keep an eye out on eBay and the rest of the biking forums and see if you can score a frame. You can then transfer all your kit accross. Otherwise a better deal is to buy a complete bike secondhand, you can then relegate your current Allez to winter duties or flog it.
If you want to go faster, train on a heavy frame. If you want to feel that you're going faster, buy a better frame.
Ok, simplistic, but there's a grain of truth there.
Bang for your buck: upgrade your wheels again. Get some proper carbon soled shoes. Hire a coach. Get a training program. Buy a power meter (Powertap in a rear wheel or a Quarq or SRM).
Bottom line is that nothing will improve you as much as mileage. The real question is what you want out of riding your bike. Most cyclists would regard Fred Whitton as properly challenging. If, as you suggest, you rode that in your stride, maybe you should be thinking about the Marmotte, the Etape, and racing. If you go down that road, then a second frame is a sound buy: you'll have a training frame and a race frame. It all depends what you want to do.
Ok, simplistic, but there's a grain of truth there.
Bang for your buck: upgrade your wheels again. Get some proper carbon soled shoes. Hire a coach. Get a training program. Buy a power meter (Powertap in a rear wheel or a Quarq or SRM).
Bottom line is that nothing will improve you as much as mileage. The real question is what you want out of riding your bike. Most cyclists would regard Fred Whitton as properly challenging. If, as you suggest, you rode that in your stride, maybe you should be thinking about the Marmotte, the Etape, and racing. If you go down that road, then a second frame is a sound buy: you'll have a training frame and a race frame. It all depends what you want to do.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th June 22:26
Surely depends upon what gains you're looking for. If its Speed, then the wheels are probably the obvious choice, for comfort perhaps its the frame fit, material and geometry.
I've been contemplating this a while now. Had a Boardman Comp for 18 months, but now thinking of buying a new bike. Cant make my mind up whether to go Steel with a Genesis Equilibrium, or just buy a race bike in the CAAD10. I worry too much about the longevity of Carbon to be buying a Supersix. Steel may get the nod. I'm not even Cat 4 standard so dont think it'll make a massive difference. Weigh up comfort vs speed and try and find a balance between the 2?
I've been contemplating this a while now. Had a Boardman Comp for 18 months, but now thinking of buying a new bike. Cant make my mind up whether to go Steel with a Genesis Equilibrium, or just buy a race bike in the CAAD10. I worry too much about the longevity of Carbon to be buying a Supersix. Steel may get the nod. I'm not even Cat 4 standard so dont think it'll make a massive difference. Weigh up comfort vs speed and try and find a balance between the 2?
Greg66 said:
Bottom line is that nothing will improve you as much as mileage. The real question is what you want out of riding your bike. Most cyclists would regard Fred Whitton as properly challenging. If, as you suggest, you rode that in your stride, maybe you should be thinking about the Marmotte, the Etape, and racing. If you go down that road, then a second frame is a sound buy: you'll have a training frame and a race frame. It all depends what you want to do.
I think I prepared pretty well for the Fred Whitton (typically at least a 70 mile hilly ride each weekend plus 2 or 3 turbo sessions mid-week) and whilst some of the climbs were pretty tough I didn't struggle too much at all - although we went round pretty slowly as we were waiting for our mate to catch up every couple of miles. We also took full advantage of the feed stops!I definitely need something to focus on in the next couple of months - probably a couple of more sportives. I'd also like to start going out on club rides as I quite often ride alone, which can get a bit boring on rides over a couple of hours. I'm averaging between 16 and 17 mph on hilly routes (near Leeds) so hope that I can find a local club which wont be too fast for me. I don't mind putting the effort in (I push myself pretty hard on solo rides) but don't want to get dropped after 1/2 a mile !
Join a club before you spend out much more on bikes. Your fitness will be the reason you're not going faster, not the bike.
Get out and do some rides with the club that really push you, it will pay dividends. Look at the thread Tony Hetherington started. He has the right idea.
The bike helps of course, but it's amazing how much is down to the bloke on it
Get out and do some rides with the club that really push you, it will pay dividends. Look at the thread Tony Hetherington started. He has the right idea.
The bike helps of course, but it's amazing how much is down to the bloke on it
racerbob said:
can't see the point in spending good money on a carbon frame and then fitting spd shoes and pedals though ?
But agree, if it's in the budget buy a good carbon frame, as the others say, you will notice a big difference, just depends if you can justify it.
as the op said he was already considering changing shoes i thought it was a given he was going towards road spds. But agree, if it's in the budget buy a good carbon frame, as the others say, you will notice a big difference, just depends if you can justify it.
A new frame is still the best possible bang per buck solution, it might be worth finding a shop who can offer you a substantial test ride (not two laps of the car park) and seeing for yourself the difference between an allez and a good quality carbon frame....
there is no point dropping £800 on a powertap to fit it to a Specialised Allez.
pablo said:
A new frame is still the best possible bang per buck solution, it might be worth finding a shop who can offer you a substantial test ride (not two laps of the car park) and seeing for yourself the difference between an allez and a good quality carbon frame....
How much faster will he be on this new frame?Furberger said:
pablo said:
A new frame is still the best possible bang per buck solution, it might be worth finding a shop who can offer you a substantial test ride (not two laps of the car park) and seeing for yourself the difference between an allez and a good quality carbon frame....
How much faster will he be on this new frame?
in all seriousness though its not about outright speed and quantifying tangible gains will be very hard unless we get a lab and set some controls. IMO the advantage ofa carbon frame is making gains on efficiency and understanding how much better carbon is at transferring power: a more efficient bike will make it easier to maintain a higher average speed (something the OP says is an issue) whilst using less energy than on the current bike. its not rocket science. Carbon is also comfier on longer rides which has a massive effect on the arms. something like the planet x with carbon forks, stem and bars will be like a cushion comapred to the harshness of alloy on the Allez.
nammynake said:
I think I prepared pretty well for the Fred Whitton (typically at least a 70 mile hilly ride each weekend plus 2 or 3 turbo sessions mid-week) and whilst some of the climbs were pretty tough I didn't struggle too much at all - although we went round pretty slowly as we were waiting for our mate to catch up every couple of miles. We also took full advantage of the feed stops!
I definitely need something to focus on in the next couple of months - probably a couple of more sportives. I'd also like to start going out on club rides as I quite often ride alone, which can get a bit boring on rides over a couple of hours. I'm averaging between 16 and 17 mph on hilly routes (near Leeds) so hope that I can find a local club which wont be too fast for me. I don't mind putting the effort in (I push myself pretty hard on solo rides) but don't want to get dropped after 1/2 a mile !
At those sorts of speeds in that part of the country I suspect you'd slot in nicely with a club. Most cycling clubs have club runs that cater for different riders. Just don't sign up with the Elite/Cat1/Cat2 run on your first outing. I definitely need something to focus on in the next couple of months - probably a couple of more sportives. I'd also like to start going out on club rides as I quite often ride alone, which can get a bit boring on rides over a couple of hours. I'm averaging between 16 and 17 mph on hilly routes (near Leeds) so hope that I can find a local club which wont be too fast for me. I don't mind putting the effort in (I push myself pretty hard on solo rides) but don't want to get dropped after 1/2 a mile !
From what you've said, I think you'll get a lot from joining a club.
pablo said:
depends how fast he pedals
in all seriousness though its not about outright speed and quantifying tangible gains will be very hard unless we get a lab and set some controls. IMO the advantage ofa carbon frame is making gains on efficiency and understanding how much better carbon is at transferring power: a more efficient bike will make it easier to maintain a higher average speed (something the OP says is an issue) whilst using less energy than on the current bike. its not rocket science. Carbon is also comfier on longer rides which has a massive effect on the arms. something like the planet x with carbon forks, stem and bars will be like a cushion comapred to the harshness of alloy on the Allez.
Very true, a more efficient set up should make a noticable difference; whilst you may not make massive gains on your avg speed straight away, you should notice a more efficient power transfer and this will encourage you to push harder so in time the speed will come. in all seriousness though its not about outright speed and quantifying tangible gains will be very hard unless we get a lab and set some controls. IMO the advantage ofa carbon frame is making gains on efficiency and understanding how much better carbon is at transferring power: a more efficient bike will make it easier to maintain a higher average speed (something the OP says is an issue) whilst using less energy than on the current bike. its not rocket science. Carbon is also comfier on longer rides which has a massive effect on the arms. something like the planet x with carbon forks, stem and bars will be like a cushion comapred to the harshness of alloy on the Allez.
Improve the efficiency through shoes / wheels or frame - if you can make it over the Whitton without having to stop then i suggest that you're fine to cross over to road specific spd's with some decent carbon shoes already. There are very few areas in the UK that will catch you out if you can already cope with Hardknott etc.
The Allez is a good start point, but it sounds like you are at a standard where a lighter / stiffer set up would be beneficial, especially if you combine this with joining a club and going on their training runs.
Dont assume that it has to be carbon though, a decent aluminium frame will be just as good as a cheap carbon offering - the CAAD 10 isn't so highly regarded amongst racers without good reason.
However its a slippery slope this upgrade lark, and it just gets more and more expensive as you chase those improvements!
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