Constructive dismissal?
Discussion
A work colleague has asked for my advice and I said I would throw it out to the PH community.
He was employed as a finance clerk back in late 90s and has worked his way up through the company (American firm). He's currently a regional finance manager and enjoying the position. Work held some leadership training recently where we all had to fill out a profile of qualifications and experience etc. Our human resource department questioned why he didn't have a university degree. He has quoted that the company have promoted him five times in 12 years and it wasn't a requirement when he started. They have insisted that he takes a university equivalent job, whilst still holding down his role, without study leave etc.
The rest of his peers are being promoted but he has been told he can't move until he passes professional qualifications (not really required for the role) as they are degree-level apparently. This will probably take him three years to complete. They have also told him that his salary will be contained to just inflationary rises until he qualifies.
Considering they interviewed him for the internal roles with copies of CVs, and still promoted him. Could he claim that this is constructive dismissal of sorts? He is thinking of leaving and either studying full time, or going to a European company that aren't so bothered about a 42 year old with a degree. He is really struggling to do a 50 hour week, spent time with his young family, and then find 20 hours a week to study and take exams.
I know he should probably have taken the exams when he was in his 20s but he said his employers were always promoted him on his hard work and so he foolishly thought he didn't need them when he got to his 30s.
I don't really know what to suggest. He's probably our best finance manager but we're risking losing him through some seemingly stupid internal policy change.
Thoughts?
Thanks
He was employed as a finance clerk back in late 90s and has worked his way up through the company (American firm). He's currently a regional finance manager and enjoying the position. Work held some leadership training recently where we all had to fill out a profile of qualifications and experience etc. Our human resource department questioned why he didn't have a university degree. He has quoted that the company have promoted him five times in 12 years and it wasn't a requirement when he started. They have insisted that he takes a university equivalent job, whilst still holding down his role, without study leave etc.
The rest of his peers are being promoted but he has been told he can't move until he passes professional qualifications (not really required for the role) as they are degree-level apparently. This will probably take him three years to complete. They have also told him that his salary will be contained to just inflationary rises until he qualifies.
Considering they interviewed him for the internal roles with copies of CVs, and still promoted him. Could he claim that this is constructive dismissal of sorts? He is thinking of leaving and either studying full time, or going to a European company that aren't so bothered about a 42 year old with a degree. He is really struggling to do a 50 hour week, spent time with his young family, and then find 20 hours a week to study and take exams.
I know he should probably have taken the exams when he was in his 20s but he said his employers were always promoted him on his hard work and so he foolishly thought he didn't need them when he got to his 30s.
I don't really know what to suggest. He's probably our best finance manager but we're risking losing him through some seemingly stupid internal policy change.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Alex said:
What is the f
king point of studying for a degree at 42? There is nothing relevant to his job that he will learn that he won't already know.
They have asked for degree equivalent. He was thinking about doing an Open university. It would appear that US degrees are kind of our equivalent of A levels. The US guys therefore think he hasn't finished high school. However, he's worked with us for 13 years, they know he's good.king point of studying for a degree at 42? There is nothing relevant to his job that he will learn that he won't already know.They have now started saying they want him to do an accountancy qualification. However, most of his peers (including me) are not professionally qualified, but we do have degrees. Does that make us a safer pair of financial hands? I doubt it. While I was doing my maths degree, he was out at work gaining commercial experience.
johnfm said:
What a total failure by (unsurprisingly) inept HR people.
How do companies like this continue to operate.
I am surprised his immediate manager/director hasn't sorted this and told HR to wind their necks in a bit.
It depends what the reason is for the employer stating that employees of a certain seniority need a certain qualification.How do companies like this continue to operate.
I am surprised his immediate manager/director hasn't sorted this and told HR to wind their necks in a bit.
For example, my previous employer was forced to reorganise the regional finance managers into 2 different bands with only the qualified accountants in the most senior of the 2 roles. This change was not done by choice but because it was demanded by the industry regulator (FSA).
I was made redundant in March for this very reason, although no-one put that in writing. I have pretty much no chance of getting another (similar) job and have even been turned down for jobs I could do in my sleep.
I really need to buy a degree or at least find the shortest route for getting one. I was kinda hoping that my experience would act as some kind of credut, but it appears not. Anyone know any university bosses that are open to negotiations??!!
As someone else has already said, the company do pretty much do what they want in this situation.
I really need to buy a degree or at least find the shortest route for getting one. I was kinda hoping that my experience would act as some kind of credut, but it appears not. Anyone know any university bosses that are open to negotiations??!!
As someone else has already said, the company do pretty much do what they want in this situation.
Jules_s asked if he was a member of a professional body, this is a good question because often these bodies will allow credit on their qualifications for years of professional experience. Look at the various financial bodies that are appropriate and see if any of these will suit.
Then look at the qualifications he could get by this route and see of the body classes this as degree-equivalent, you might be looking at the equivalent of "Chartered". If they are then go back to HR and check if they will before joining the body.
Start to write down the various jobs he has been doing in the organisation, start and finish dates and if possible get a current member of that body to sign to verify them - this goes down well. The term often used is Continuous Professional Development and will show him working his way up the ranks. It's not a waste of time even if he decides to apply for other jobs elsewhere.
Finally don't forget to claim the membership of the body against his personal tax (if the employer won't stump up for it).
Russ
Then look at the qualifications he could get by this route and see of the body classes this as degree-equivalent, you might be looking at the equivalent of "Chartered". If they are then go back to HR and check if they will before joining the body.
Start to write down the various jobs he has been doing in the organisation, start and finish dates and if possible get a current member of that body to sign to verify them - this goes down well. The term often used is Continuous Professional Development and will show him working his way up the ranks. It's not a waste of time even if he decides to apply for other jobs elsewhere.
Finally don't forget to claim the membership of the body against his personal tax (if the employer won't stump up for it).
Russ
Chilli said:
I was made redundant in March for this very reason, although no-one put that in writing. I have pretty much no chance of getting another (similar) job and have even been turned down for jobs I could do in my sleep.
I really need to buy a degree or at least find the shortest route for getting one. I was kinda hoping that my experience would act as some kind of credut, but it appears not. Anyone know any university bosses that are open to negotiations??!!
As someone else has already said, the company do pretty much do what they want in this situation.
Are you sure your experience doesn't give you credits towards a degree? how about internal courses / CPD that you undertook during your career? In Wales they credit CPD, all those pointless half day courses you have done over the years add up to credits towards formal qualifications, not sure if its the same in England. I really need to buy a degree or at least find the shortest route for getting one. I was kinda hoping that my experience would act as some kind of credut, but it appears not. Anyone know any university bosses that are open to negotiations??!!
As someone else has already said, the company do pretty much do what they want in this situation.
Have you spoken to a University / HE College?
It might also be worth doing an MBA, either full or part time. Plenty of them don't have a requirement for an undergraduate degree first and are generally much shorter than a full degree would be. You would also end up with (at least as far as many HR departments are concerned) is a more attractive qualification than a standard uni degree.
BoRED S2upid said:
Are you sure your experience doesn't give you credits towards a degree? how about internal courses / CPD that you undertook during your career? In Wales they credit CPD, all those pointless half day courses you have done over the years add up to credits towards formal qualifications, not sure if its the same in England.
Have you spoken to a University / HE College?
No, not spoken top anyone about it really. If I could gain any kind of degree which olny required say 6 months of studying I'd do it....but looking at the current timeframes, I'd be retired by the time I'd completed it!Have you spoken to a University / HE College?
Anyways, apolgies OP for the hijack...back on topic!
WhereamI said:
This isn't constructive dismissal nor is it even grounds for complaint. The company is perfectly in it's rights to do what it is doing.
Thanks for the response.I am surprised though that a company can do this without any recourse. This assumes any employer can suddenly request additional qualifications for internal candidates before paying market rate. It is a good way to contain the compensation expense.
I feel it's the Americans not understanding that the UK degree system is so very different to theirs. Either way, he qualified by experience and they put him in that position. I feel for him, but it does sound like they are ethically wrong but legally right.
simontrent said:
WhereamI said:
This isn't constructive dismissal nor is it even grounds for complaint. The company is perfectly in it's rights to do what it is doing.
Thanks for the response.I am surprised though that a company can do this without any recourse. This assumes any employer can suddenly request additional qualifications for internal candidates before paying market rate. It is a good way to contain the compensation expense.
I feel it's the Americans not understanding that the UK degree system is so very different to theirs. Either way, he qualified by experience and they put him in that position. I feel for him, but it does sound like they are ethically wrong but legally right.
One thing to bear in mind is that if his experience has truly taught him everything he needs to know then he should be able to obtain qualifications without the need to study. If he does need to study in order to pass exams or interviews then perhaps that shows that his level of knowledge isn't where it needs to be in order for him to progress.
WhereamI said:
Unless I am reading it incorrectly, he hasn't been demoted or had his pay cut, he's been told that this is something he needs to address if he wants to progress further. Legally there is nothing wrong with that and to be honest that doesn't seem ethically wrong either.
One thing to bear in mind is that if his experience has truly taught him everything he needs to know then he should be able to obtain qualifications without the need to study. If he does need to study in order to pass exams or interviews then perhaps that shows that his level of knowledge isn't where it needs to be in order for him to progress.
I guess it is the inconsistency. Our colleague has a degree in biology and is apparently better qualified for the finance role than him. Holding back pay is the unethical bit. He is underpaid against all peers. They promoted him with his qualifications and then admit they made a mistake and he needs to sort it out.One thing to bear in mind is that if his experience has truly taught him everything he needs to know then he should be able to obtain qualifications without the need to study. If he does need to study in order to pass exams or interviews then perhaps that shows that his level of knowledge isn't where it needs to be in order for him to progress.
He is very experienced but lacks some of the theoretical knowledge to pass without studying. I can see his point here.
simontrent said:
I guess it is the inconsistency. Our colleague has a degree in biology and is apparently better qualified for the finance role than him. Holding back pay is the unethical bit. He is underpaid against all peers. They promoted him with his qualifications and then admit they made a mistake and he needs to sort it out.
He is very experienced but lacks some of the theoretical knowledge to pass without studying. I can see his point here.
It does sound like they are holding back pay increases though, not holding back what he is contractually entitled to. He is very experienced but lacks some of the theoretical knowledge to pass without studying. I can see his point here.
Whilst the degree in Biology seems bizarre I think it's always a mistake to compare with others because you never know what conversations they've had with HR, what commitments they are under or what other factors have been taken in to account in their case.
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