Discussion
Hi all, I'm just looking for some advice so said I'd post up here and see what the general concensus/wisdom is on doing some light tweaks to a 944 S2.
I've had the car about two years now and think it'd be nice to just eek out a few extra ponies if at all possible and do so in a simple no-frills fashion. It's totally standard as it stands presently.
I'm not looking for huge gains, just a bit more shove. I want to keep the nice smooth torquey throttle response but I'm interested in finding out if it can deliver a little bit of extra punch whilst still keeping the engine a relatively understressed unit which remains tractable for all types of road driving.
Anybody got experience or links to tuning guides on the 3.0 16v engine ?
To be honest, a quick google has thrown up lots of options for chips, all claiming increases of 16-20bhp over standard, but I'd be wary of just buying a chip anywhere and would like some guidance as to reputable suppliers and tuners, or first-hand recommendations.
If it is possible to get an increase of 16-20bhp with just a re-chip, I think I'd be happy to just try that and maybe a decent cone filter, or would a direct replacement freer-flowing panel filter work better on these engines ?
You'd imagine if these chips deliver what they claim that if it was combined with a good filter it should see an increase of maybe 20bhp, maybe as much as 25bhp if your luck was in, if you believe the claims about the maps on the chips.
And I'd be happy with that because theoretically that should place me in the region of 230bhp, and still with a decent spread of torque and an unstressed motor.
Any advice / first-hand experience / recommendations welcome...
I've had the car about two years now and think it'd be nice to just eek out a few extra ponies if at all possible and do so in a simple no-frills fashion. It's totally standard as it stands presently.
I'm not looking for huge gains, just a bit more shove. I want to keep the nice smooth torquey throttle response but I'm interested in finding out if it can deliver a little bit of extra punch whilst still keeping the engine a relatively understressed unit which remains tractable for all types of road driving.
Anybody got experience or links to tuning guides on the 3.0 16v engine ?
To be honest, a quick google has thrown up lots of options for chips, all claiming increases of 16-20bhp over standard, but I'd be wary of just buying a chip anywhere and would like some guidance as to reputable suppliers and tuners, or first-hand recommendations.
If it is possible to get an increase of 16-20bhp with just a re-chip, I think I'd be happy to just try that and maybe a decent cone filter, or would a direct replacement freer-flowing panel filter work better on these engines ?
You'd imagine if these chips deliver what they claim that if it was combined with a good filter it should see an increase of maybe 20bhp, maybe as much as 25bhp if your luck was in, if you believe the claims about the maps on the chips.
And I'd be happy with that because theoretically that should place me in the region of 230bhp, and still with a decent spread of torque and an unstressed motor.
Any advice / first-hand experience / recommendations welcome...
There's not a lot to be gained from the S2 other than supercharging it. More important is to find out what condition it's in at the moment; you might improve it significantly just by ensuring everything is running properly. Chips are more about smoothing out the power delivery than adding more bhp, or at least the good ones are.
I'd get everything checked over and replaced if necessary, and think about things like taking a bit of weight out, improving the suspension, that sort of thing. Or, buy a turbo, sell your house, start to fiddle with it and never be satisfied!
I'd get everything checked over and replaced if necessary, and think about things like taking a bit of weight out, improving the suspension, that sort of thing. Or, buy a turbo, sell your house, start to fiddle with it and never be satisfied!
Yeah, I'm not out looking for major power though, I've other turbocharged nut-jobs in the garage if I wanted to go down that route.
It just strikes me that the S2 engine is very under stressed and gives the impression that it can easily deliver a bit more oomph without asking much of it.
An increase in the region of say 20bhp is a 10% jump in output, and I think would put it in a nice sweet-spot for a nice usable road car which is nice and crisp to drive and still delivers good economy without stressing any engine components.
I like nice crisp throttle response and a smooth torquey power delivery.
Incidentally, when I started searching for 944s a few years ago I was only contemplating the Turbos, until I drove a few (all late model cars, 1990/91). For what I wanted from this type of car the n/a 3.0 S2 seemed much more suited to me and I enjoyed it a lot more. I just found the Turbos too laggy and it spoilt the drive for me a bit. I prefer a smooth, flowing, type of drive in a car like this, and that's where I found the S2s were perfectly suited and an enjoyable drive where the car could be beautifully balanced on the throttle and provide instant response from the throttle whenever you wanted it. It's just a personal thing, but I found I enjoyed driving the S2's more than the Turbos, even with less outright power. It's all down to the individual.
As for this particular car -- the suspension has had a comprehensive overhaul of a lot of the bushes, brake discs and pads all round are new, brake lines & hoses have been replaced, springs and shocks are all good 'n tight and replaced a few years back, it's had fresh belt(s) and pulleys etc., all the filters have been changed, and its had new plugs. It showed excellent results in a compression test I did after buying it a few years ago, but I can't remember the exact readings off the top of my head. Suffice to say it's healthy.
It just strikes me that the S2 engine is very under stressed and gives the impression that it can easily deliver a bit more oomph without asking much of it.
An increase in the region of say 20bhp is a 10% jump in output, and I think would put it in a nice sweet-spot for a nice usable road car which is nice and crisp to drive and still delivers good economy without stressing any engine components.
I like nice crisp throttle response and a smooth torquey power delivery.
Incidentally, when I started searching for 944s a few years ago I was only contemplating the Turbos, until I drove a few (all late model cars, 1990/91). For what I wanted from this type of car the n/a 3.0 S2 seemed much more suited to me and I enjoyed it a lot more. I just found the Turbos too laggy and it spoilt the drive for me a bit. I prefer a smooth, flowing, type of drive in a car like this, and that's where I found the S2s were perfectly suited and an enjoyable drive where the car could be beautifully balanced on the throttle and provide instant response from the throttle whenever you wanted it. It's just a personal thing, but I found I enjoyed driving the S2's more than the Turbos, even with less outright power. It's all down to the individual.
As for this particular car -- the suspension has had a comprehensive overhaul of a lot of the bushes, brake discs and pads all round are new, brake lines & hoses have been replaced, springs and shocks are all good 'n tight and replaced a few years back, it's had fresh belt(s) and pulleys etc., all the filters have been changed, and its had new plugs. It showed excellent results in a compression test I did after buying it a few years ago, but I can't remember the exact readings off the top of my head. Suffice to say it's healthy.
Yes but once you sample that boost it becomes addictive...
I have recently changed my old 944 Turbo for a 968 (944S3) and whilst it is a great car, I do miss that solid bit of thrust the turbo would give, and to be honest there is not much difference between the turbo lag and the 968 off-cam
I have recently changed my old 944 Turbo for a 968 (944S3) and whilst it is a great car, I do miss that solid bit of thrust the turbo would give, and to be honest there is not much difference between the turbo lag and the 968 off-cam
Edited by Fat Albert on Tuesday 19th June 23:29
Corso Marche said:
Incidentally, when I started searching for 944s a few years ago I was only contemplating the Turbos, until I drove a few (all late model cars, 1990/91). For what I wanted from this type of car the n/a 3.0 S2 seemed much more suited to me and I enjoyed it a lot more. I just found the Turbos too laggy and it spoilt the drive for me a bit. I prefer a smooth, flowing, type of drive in a car like this, and that's where I found the S2s were perfectly suited and an enjoyable drive where the car could be beautifully balanced on the throttle and provide instant response from the throttle whenever you wanted it. It's just a personal thing, but I found I enjoyed driving the S2's more than the Turbos, even with less outright power. It's all down to the individual.
With some minor mods the turbo isn't as laggy as it's made out to be, when the boost arrives there is quite a surge and that gives the impression that off boost the performance is weak.Yeah but I'm a sucker for n/a throttle response and making fast flowing progress.
I think I'd like the car that bit more with 968 levels of power and response.
I won't be changing for a 968 or 944Turbo because by the time I'd change it's not worth the extra outlay just for a few extra ponies by the time you'd have the foibles sorted on a new purchase and everything up to standard. A simple chip and change of air filter would cost less than 200notes, and I have a known quantity and sound car to start with.
As said earlier, I don't want huge power - that's not the aim, just instant get up and go with a bit more punch.
I think I'd like the car that bit more with 968 levels of power and response.
I won't be changing for a 968 or 944Turbo because by the time I'd change it's not worth the extra outlay just for a few extra ponies by the time you'd have the foibles sorted on a new purchase and everything up to standard. A simple chip and change of air filter would cost less than 200notes, and I have a known quantity and sound car to start with.
As said earlier, I don't want huge power - that's not the aim, just instant get up and go with a bit more punch.
Corso Marche said:
Incidentally, when I started searching for 944s a few years ago I was only contemplating the Turbos, until I drove a few (all late model cars, 1990/91). For what I wanted from this type of car the n/a 3.0 S2 seemed much more suited to me and I enjoyed it a lot more. I just found the Turbos too laggy and it spoilt the drive for me a bit. I prefer a smooth, flowing, type of drive in a car like this, and that's where I found the S2s were perfectly suited and an enjoyable drive where the car could be beautifully balanced on the throttle and provide instant response from the throttle whenever you wanted it. It's just a personal thing, but I found I enjoyed driving the S2's more than the Turbos, even with less outright power. It's all down to the individual.
I couldn't agree with you more.I usually find myself in the minority here.
Having owned both I think the S2 has the better engine BY FAR. The power delivery is just so.
The Turbo in contrast is super laggy (250bhp version) and the sports suspension fitted to mine ruined the car.
The power gains you seek can be had from Vario-cam, but try finding a GOOD 968 with leather and Air-con (if that's your bag (it is mine))
The chips will give you a bit more - enabling you to use super unleaded for example. From what I can see, you get the most benefit from a chip + exhaust + filter.
My car has the last two (H&S exhaust + K&N) and I will try a chip at some point in the next couple of months. JMG are about to start selling their chips again. Promax are the other well known supplier of chips & 944 tuning bits.
I ran a 944 turbo for 4 years, well sorted, ~300hp. I have to say I prefer my S2 in many ways, and it's certainly a better track car. That may have a lot to do with the lighter (soundproofing removed, bucket seats etc..) weight of my S2, but it's also to do with the power delivery.
btw i think the best performance mod on a 944 is KWv3 suspension
My car has the last two (H&S exhaust + K&N) and I will try a chip at some point in the next couple of months. JMG are about to start selling their chips again. Promax are the other well known supplier of chips & 944 tuning bits.
I ran a 944 turbo for 4 years, well sorted, ~300hp. I have to say I prefer my S2 in many ways, and it's certainly a better track car. That may have a lot to do with the lighter (soundproofing removed, bucket seats etc..) weight of my S2, but it's also to do with the power delivery.
btw i think the best performance mod on a 944 is KWv3 suspension
Thanks for the info and comments all.
I'll do a bit more research into the Promax chips, and the ones from JMG also.
The only other mod I'll do in conjunction with that is either a higher-flow panel filter, or an induction kit/cone filter. I've mixed feelings on that and can't help but wondering if a panel filter is the way to go, because the factory airbox seems pretty efficient from looking in at it. No scientific proof to back that up though !!
One other thing that has occurred to me though is the catalyst. How sensitive are these S2's with regards to exhaust back-pressure ? Some cars respond well to de-cats, others adversely. I see de-cat pipes/sections for sale across the web, but if I was gonna decat the car I think I'd just make up a decat pipe here myself using the end flanges of the cat and just bolt a straight-thru pipe back in. No cost, and I can always go back if the drop in back pressure doesn't suit the car.
So, in summary, some very simple mods;
A) A Chip for the ECU (Probably Promax or from JMG)
B) A panel filter for the airbox, or maybe an induction kit
C) A possible decat ?
Be interesting to have a rolling road session before and after the mods, and see what effect(s) they might have. Might be informative for others anyway.
I'll do a bit more research into the Promax chips, and the ones from JMG also.
The only other mod I'll do in conjunction with that is either a higher-flow panel filter, or an induction kit/cone filter. I've mixed feelings on that and can't help but wondering if a panel filter is the way to go, because the factory airbox seems pretty efficient from looking in at it. No scientific proof to back that up though !!
One other thing that has occurred to me though is the catalyst. How sensitive are these S2's with regards to exhaust back-pressure ? Some cars respond well to de-cats, others adversely. I see de-cat pipes/sections for sale across the web, but if I was gonna decat the car I think I'd just make up a decat pipe here myself using the end flanges of the cat and just bolt a straight-thru pipe back in. No cost, and I can always go back if the drop in back pressure doesn't suit the car.
So, in summary, some very simple mods;
A) A Chip for the ECU (Probably Promax or from JMG)
B) A panel filter for the airbox, or maybe an induction kit
C) A possible decat ?
Be interesting to have a rolling road session before and after the mods, and see what effect(s) they might have. Might be informative for others anyway.
Have a wade through Rick's 944 dyno league here http://www.cannell.co.uk if you can find the S2s amongst the turbos!
All these are done on the same dyno, so very accurate. Promax do a matched chip and decat deal, there might well be a before and after reading amongst the league.
All these are done on the same dyno, so very accurate. Promax do a matched chip and decat deal, there might well be a before and after reading amongst the league.
Edited by pauljmcnulty on Thursday 21st June 18:04
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