Problem with MoTing a kitcar
Discussion
I've got a Royale Sabre that was one of the last kitcars to go through SVA in June 2009. It was built from a F reg Sierra and at that time everything was original Sierra. It was registered correctly by the DVLA and issued with the next random F reg on the list.
The V5 says on th front page, section 3 Special notes; 1)rebuilt - assembled from parts some of which were not new and 2) SVA/IVA cert issued 28/06/09 emission limit %CO4.5; HC 0.12 and then in Section 10 its says against Date of First registration; 06 07 2009
Since that time it hasn't neded an MoT and I've renewed my tax on line. This year the tax reminder V11 came and it says it needs an MoT for 6 July.
Two things have changed since 2009. Firstly I changed the old Sierra 1.8 CVH engine to a 2003 Focus Zetec and secondly I put a personalised plate on it, an E reg as against my proper F reg. Both of these changes are correctly notified and added to the V5
So today I took it to my local MoT station and we had fun and games to such an extent that he won't test it. He says that since the date of first registration is 2009 it has to meet 2009 emission levels or having checked about engine changes since the engine is 2003 at the best he'll test it to 2003 emission levels. Either of which mean I need a cat, remapped ECU, lambda sensor so about £500 at the least. I disagreed with him so he phoned his test examiner at VOSA but unfortunately he'd gone home early and the chap he spoke with didn't have a clue so we have to wait till Monday to get a proper position from VOSA so I'd like some ammo ready for my fight with VOSA. Oh and the tester's on my side since he's got a Q plate kit too.
I'm convinced that since the car was issued with a F reg in the first place, that proves it's seen as an 89 car. The new engine is irrelevant as is the personalised plate. Also since the V5 says test to %CO4.5; HC 0.12 then IMHO that's what he should test to, but he says the computer won't let him do it, it insists it's a 2009 car.
Anyone load me some bullets please for my fight on Monday
The V5 says on th front page, section 3 Special notes; 1)rebuilt - assembled from parts some of which were not new and 2) SVA/IVA cert issued 28/06/09 emission limit %CO4.5; HC 0.12 and then in Section 10 its says against Date of First registration; 06 07 2009
Since that time it hasn't neded an MoT and I've renewed my tax on line. This year the tax reminder V11 came and it says it needs an MoT for 6 July.
Two things have changed since 2009. Firstly I changed the old Sierra 1.8 CVH engine to a 2003 Focus Zetec and secondly I put a personalised plate on it, an E reg as against my proper F reg. Both of these changes are correctly notified and added to the V5
So today I took it to my local MoT station and we had fun and games to such an extent that he won't test it. He says that since the date of first registration is 2009 it has to meet 2009 emission levels or having checked about engine changes since the engine is 2003 at the best he'll test it to 2003 emission levels. Either of which mean I need a cat, remapped ECU, lambda sensor so about £500 at the least. I disagreed with him so he phoned his test examiner at VOSA but unfortunately he'd gone home early and the chap he spoke with didn't have a clue so we have to wait till Monday to get a proper position from VOSA so I'd like some ammo ready for my fight with VOSA. Oh and the tester's on my side since he's got a Q plate kit too.
I'm convinced that since the car was issued with a F reg in the first place, that proves it's seen as an 89 car. The new engine is irrelevant as is the personalised plate. Also since the V5 says test to %CO4.5; HC 0.12 then IMHO that's what he should test to, but he says the computer won't let him do it, it insists it's a 2009 car.
Anyone load me some bullets please for my fight on Monday
Don't know the legalitys but mine like yours is on an "age related" plate 1974 in my case, car mot'd earlier this week, no problems emissions consisted of "visible" smoke test.
I would just go to another MOT station if I was you.
Even though my car as been mot'd before it was not on the system, apparently this happens a lot these days, he just put the details in manually, you need to find a petrol head MOT man rather than a jobs worth,
Eta, after reading the post above just checked my log book as a new red one as just arrived, emissions is blank on mine.
I would just go to another MOT station if I was you.
Even though my car as been mot'd before it was not on the system, apparently this happens a lot these days, he just put the details in manually, you need to find a petrol head MOT man rather than a jobs worth,
Eta, after reading the post above just checked my log book as a new red one as just arrived, emissions is blank on mine.
Edited by Jon Ison on Friday 22 June 19:45
ColinM50 said:
I've got a Royale Sabre that was one of the last kitcars to go through SVA in June 2009. It was built from a F reg Sierra and at that time everything was original Sierra. It was registered correctly by the DVLA and issued with the next random F reg on the list.
The V5 says on th front page, section 3 Special notes; 1)rebuilt - assembled from parts some of which were not new and 2) SVA/IVA cert issued 28/06/09 emission limit %CO4.5; HC 0.12 and then in Section 10 its says against Date of First registration; 06 07 2009
Since that time it hasn't neded an MoT and I've renewed my tax on line. This year the tax reminder V11 came and it says it needs an MoT for 6 July.
Two things have changed since 2009. Firstly I changed the old Sierra 1.8 CVH engine to a 2003 Focus Zetec and secondly I put a personalised plate on it, an E reg as against my proper F reg. Both of these changes are correctly notified and added to the V5
So today I took it to my local MoT station and we had fun and games to such an extent that he won't test it. He says that since the date of first registration is 2009 it has to meet 2009 emission levels or having checked about engine changes since the engine is 2003 at the best he'll test it to 2003 emission levels. Either of which mean I need a cat, remapped ECU, lambda sensor so about £500 at the least. I disagreed with him so he phoned his test examiner at VOSA but unfortunately he'd gone home early and the chap he spoke with didn't have a clue so we have to wait till Monday to get a proper position from VOSA so I'd like some ammo ready for my fight with VOSA. Oh and the tester's on my side since he's got a Q plate kit too.
I'm convinced that since the car was issued with a F reg in the first place, that proves it's seen as an 89 car. The new engine is irrelevant as is the personalised plate. Also since the V5 says test to %CO4.5; HC 0.12 then IMHO that's what he should test to, but he says the computer won't let him do it, it insists it's a 2009 car.
Anyone load me some bullets please for my fight on Monday
I can only offer caution and concern.The V5 says on th front page, section 3 Special notes; 1)rebuilt - assembled from parts some of which were not new and 2) SVA/IVA cert issued 28/06/09 emission limit %CO4.5; HC 0.12 and then in Section 10 its says against Date of First registration; 06 07 2009
Since that time it hasn't neded an MoT and I've renewed my tax on line. This year the tax reminder V11 came and it says it needs an MoT for 6 July.
Two things have changed since 2009. Firstly I changed the old Sierra 1.8 CVH engine to a 2003 Focus Zetec and secondly I put a personalised plate on it, an E reg as against my proper F reg. Both of these changes are correctly notified and added to the V5
So today I took it to my local MoT station and we had fun and games to such an extent that he won't test it. He says that since the date of first registration is 2009 it has to meet 2009 emission levels or having checked about engine changes since the engine is 2003 at the best he'll test it to 2003 emission levels. Either of which mean I need a cat, remapped ECU, lambda sensor so about £500 at the least. I disagreed with him so he phoned his test examiner at VOSA but unfortunately he'd gone home early and the chap he spoke with didn't have a clue so we have to wait till Monday to get a proper position from VOSA so I'd like some ammo ready for my fight with VOSA. Oh and the tester's on my side since he's got a Q plate kit too.
I'm convinced that since the car was issued with a F reg in the first place, that proves it's seen as an 89 car. The new engine is irrelevant as is the personalised plate. Also since the V5 says test to %CO4.5; HC 0.12 then IMHO that's what he should test to, but he says the computer won't let him do it, it insists it's a 2009 car.
Anyone load me some bullets please for my fight on Monday
The MOT men are ALL under pressure NOT to MOT cars where the vehicle description is suspect, the registration details are in doubt, or the plates do not comply.
I know this through owning and therefore having MOT'ed from time to time some six kit cars.
The MOT man is also correct about the engine I think. But that might be subject to interpretation.
I am not sure a cat is necessary. The Kit Car specialists I use can pretty well get most injected cars through emissions without a cat, by adjusting the ECU etc on their set up kit. If you want their contacts I can supply them.
I hope VOSA give you good news. Kit Cars are being checked now by MOT stations, because the DVLA have woken up to the cloning game that is going on. I have seen a number of kits that were registered as Duttons which had no connection with a Dutton other than the V5 and the Vin plates. I have also seen several, Jago's which were not Jago's and a number of doubtful Robin Hoods which were not genuine RH's.
In think you should be OK. But any irregularities require the MOT tester to call VOSA. Hence his caution. Good Luck.
He should have tested your car.
The rules regarding emissions are clearly laid out in the MOT bible.
It either has to meet the limits stated on the V5 or the limits for the engine......Whichever is older. ie. the easiest the car can pass.
In your case it should be what is stated in the notes on the front of the V5.
The rules regarding emissions are clearly laid out in the MOT bible.
It either has to meet the limits stated on the V5 or the limits for the engine......Whichever is older. ie. the easiest the car can pass.
In your case it should be what is stated in the notes on the front of the V5.
VOSA Full test manuals are in this link if it helps.
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/b...
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/doitonline/b...
From a current thread on The Cobra Replica Club Website.
For emissions purposes only, kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used
before 1 August 1998 and wankel rotary-engined vehicles first used before
1 August 1987 are to be considered first used before 1 August 1975.
Kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1998 ("S"
reg) are required to obtain Single Vehicle Approval and should be tested to
the limits stated on the log book / registration certificate.
http://mottesters.co.uk/files/specia...n%20Manual....
http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/general-cobra-discu...
For emissions purposes only, kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used
before 1 August 1998 and wankel rotary-engined vehicles first used before
1 August 1987 are to be considered first used before 1 August 1975.
Kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1998 ("S"
reg) are required to obtain Single Vehicle Approval and should be tested to
the limits stated on the log book / registration certificate.
http://mottesters.co.uk/files/specia...n%20Manual....
http://www.cobraclub.com/forum/general-cobra-discu...
Hi Colin
"Kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1998 ("S"
reg) are required to obtain Single Vehicle Approval and should be tested to
the limits stated on the log book / registration certificate."
I can't remember for sure where this phrase occurs, might be on one of the flowcharts - it's a few years since I've tested, but this is obviouisly the essential info he needs to refer to "the computer won't let him" is just rubbish, the tester has the ability to override the computer at all times & if the tester says its passed emmissions then it has, irrelevant of what any printouts say. Your vehicle clearly has the required limits to test to on the V5 so that is what it should be tested to, the replacement engine is irrelevant. As an example, if you have a 2010 engine fitted to a 1960 car, then provided the chassis hasn't been changed (in which case it would have to go for IVA) to fit the engine, then the emissions are tested to the 1960 limits
I would suggest by-pass the local Vosa people completely as there is no guarantee that the local area MoT Vosa man will get it right either, I would suggest talk to Mark Vickers or Steve Bardsley at VOSA headquarters 01792 454351 or 454256, they will be able to give you chapter & verse on this &, I would hope, be happy to put the correct details in an email for you, this then gives you the necessary info not just for now but as long as you keep a copy, for ever! Hope you get it sorted ok
"Kit cars and amateur built vehicles first used on or after 1 August 1998 ("S"
reg) are required to obtain Single Vehicle Approval and should be tested to
the limits stated on the log book / registration certificate."
I can't remember for sure where this phrase occurs, might be on one of the flowcharts - it's a few years since I've tested, but this is obviouisly the essential info he needs to refer to "the computer won't let him" is just rubbish, the tester has the ability to override the computer at all times & if the tester says its passed emmissions then it has, irrelevant of what any printouts say. Your vehicle clearly has the required limits to test to on the V5 so that is what it should be tested to, the replacement engine is irrelevant. As an example, if you have a 2010 engine fitted to a 1960 car, then provided the chassis hasn't been changed (in which case it would have to go for IVA) to fit the engine, then the emissions are tested to the 1960 limits
I would suggest by-pass the local Vosa people completely as there is no guarantee that the local area MoT Vosa man will get it right either, I would suggest talk to Mark Vickers or Steve Bardsley at VOSA headquarters 01792 454351 or 454256, they will be able to give you chapter & verse on this &, I would hope, be happy to put the correct details in an email for you, this then gives you the necessary info not just for now but as long as you keep a copy, for ever! Hope you get it sorted ok
http://mottesters.co.uk/files/special%20notices/MO...
Page 164 shows the emissions flowchart etc. Very useful to produce to MOT tester when you have a 1993 Caterham with 2011 engine......
Page 164 shows the emissions flowchart etc. Very useful to produce to MOT tester when you have a 1993 Caterham with 2011 engine......
Thanks chaps, printed out the page from the MoT testers book (sec 7.3, page 6) and phoned him this morning and told him also mentioned I had the names of the top bolix blokes at VOSA for him to check with. "Err OK", he said, "bring it in at 3:00 and I'll have a look at the book and do the MoT".
Will let you know what happens later
Will let you know what happens later
Ta da, here it is, one nice fresh MoT.
Got there a bit early armed with all your ideas and paperwork and he came out to greet me with a "thanks for that (referring to my earlier phone call) spoke to my area man and he agrees to test it to what you said" so I was all ready for a fight and he'd already thrown in the towel.
Only slight problem we had was actually getting the emissions down to the 4.5 but after three or four tries and a good vroom vroom run at high revs to clear out the soot it passed OK.
So thanks to you all for your ideas and suggestions. Proves yet again the power of the PH collective.
Got there a bit early armed with all your ideas and paperwork and he came out to greet me with a "thanks for that (referring to my earlier phone call) spoke to my area man and he agrees to test it to what you said" so I was all ready for a fight and he'd already thrown in the towel.
Only slight problem we had was actually getting the emissions down to the 4.5 but after three or four tries and a good vroom vroom run at high revs to clear out the soot it passed OK.
So thanks to you all for your ideas and suggestions. Proves yet again the power of the PH collective.
Steve_D said:
Steffan said:
Excellent result just ready for the summer. Enjoy yourself.
Summer? Do you have a date for that and will it be AM or PM?Steve
Solstice was June the 20th at 7:09 P.M. which was 5 days ago. Enjoy it, it will not last long!
Edited by Steffan on Monday 25th June 23:08
Edited by Steffan on Monday 25th June 23:11
pity the rules are so vague and so open to individual interpretation. For example I have an SSC Stylus which went through SVA & was registered in 2008 on age related 1972 "K" plate as it was built with Escort running gear and a xflow.No emissions limits are stated on the V5.Why are they there for a 2009 Royal Sabre in the start of this thread, on the 2000 Westfield I built but not on a 2008 Stylus ?
Total lack of consistency from a government department, well who'd have thought it ?
So, If I put a zetec into this, is it still tested to 1972 emissions standards ?
Total lack of consistency from a government department, well who'd have thought it ?
So, If I put a zetec into this, is it still tested to 1972 emissions standards ?
Westyman said:
pity the rules are so vague and so open to individual interpretation. For example I have an SSC Stylus which went through SVA & was registered in 2008 on age related 1972 "K" plate as it was built with Escort running gear and a xflow.No emissions limits are stated on the V5.Why are they there for a 2009 Royal Sabre in the start of this thread, on the 2000 Westfield I built but not on a 2008 Stylus ?
Total lack of consistency from a government department, well who'd have thought it ?
So, If I put a zetec into this, is it still tested to 1972 emissions standards ?
I think it is. I believe the initial configuration sets the standard. It is a loophole but one that works, Good Luck.Total lack of consistency from a government department, well who'd have thought it ?
So, If I put a zetec into this, is it still tested to 1972 emissions standards ?
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