Are the big carmakers making less edgy cars now?
Discussion
I spent a few weeks recently with a Porsche 991S, and recently drove a new 5 series, and I am not particulary nostalgic, but I watched BMW for instance seem to change their philosophy over time...my E63 M6 was in many ways a less satisfying car than my old E39 M5, while the 991, though massively capable in very measurable way, is a less physically addictive car than my 997RS which it virtually matches in performance. Many of the reviews of new cars are mixed in their assessments also.
No doubt regulations have a role to play in all respects. New front-engined cars are bluntnosed monsters due to safety regs, stability control is required, and fuel economy regs have killed off engines like the Mezger at Porsche and the V10 at BMW.
I am not talking here about the small players like Caterham who build knife-edged cars in small volumes but the larger production players.
Clearly demand for standard shift has plummeted and it appears as if the DSG era has killed it. Many of the most desirable cars, and even supercars like the Zonda do not even offer it.
Possibly I am just a curmudgeon, but I feel as if we are now at the stage when numeric performance gains are baing balanced by feedback losses. Am I missing the plot here?
No doubt regulations have a role to play in all respects. New front-engined cars are bluntnosed monsters due to safety regs, stability control is required, and fuel economy regs have killed off engines like the Mezger at Porsche and the V10 at BMW.
I am not talking here about the small players like Caterham who build knife-edged cars in small volumes but the larger production players.
Clearly demand for standard shift has plummeted and it appears as if the DSG era has killed it. Many of the most desirable cars, and even supercars like the Zonda do not even offer it.
Possibly I am just a curmudgeon, but I feel as if we are now at the stage when numeric performance gains are baing balanced by feedback losses. Am I missing the plot here?
ambuletz said:
Most people aspire to having an Audi A3 1.6 diesel in S-line trim in black of silver. Very edgy.
/thread.The M5 is a "halo" model, now often bought by people wanting the "most expensive 5-series", instead of wanting the "best 4-door saloon on the planet".
Their less-well off neighbours buy a 520d, in their eyes, exactly the same car.
V88Dicky said:
Nissan Juke?
Will someone explain how there's so many on the roads?
Over the road from me has not one, but two of the fugly things. (White diesels, natch
)
Ling's Cars have Jukes starting at £207 a month lease hire. That's the only reason I can think of for them being everywhere!Will someone explain how there's so many on the roads?
Over the road from me has not one, but two of the fugly things. (White diesels, natch
)I agree with the OP, many modern cars are fine as daily driver mile eaters but most certainly aren't "edgy" enough to be satisfying fun cars to drive.
I can't comment what's it's like to drive modern high end performance cars, what I can say though is that whilst they are massively capable in performance terms, the over-refined, electronics filled, semi-auto 'box thing doesn't appeal to me.
I can't comment what's it's like to drive modern high end performance cars, what I can say though is that whilst they are massively capable in performance terms, the over-refined, electronics filled, semi-auto 'box thing doesn't appeal to me.
V88Dicky said:
HustleRussell said:
A very very small proportion of car buyers want a car that you'd describe as 'edgy'.
Nissan Juke?Will someone explain how there's so many on the roads?
Over the road from me has not one, but two of the fugly things. (White diesels, natch
)Look at the things people say on here about Lotus and how they should make their cars more mainstream to judge why manufacturers are doing this.
The upside is that if the big car makers stop making cars with any appeal to those wanting something more - as you put it - "edgy", there is more of a chance of the niche players retaining enough volume to stay in business without having to water down their product to meet mainstream tastes (which is a trap, because niche players can't compete with mainstream cars).
The upside is that if the big car makers stop making cars with any appeal to those wanting something more - as you put it - "edgy", there is more of a chance of the niche players retaining enough volume to stay in business without having to water down their product to meet mainstream tastes (which is a trap, because niche players can't compete with mainstream cars).
HustleRussell said:
V88Dicky said:
HustleRussell said:
A very very small proportion of car buyers want a car that you'd describe as 'edgy'.
Nissan Juke?Will someone explain how there's so many on the roads?
Over the road from me has not one, but two of the fugly things. (White diesels, natch
)http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/nissan-juke-r-d...
ZesPak said:
/thread.
The M5 is a "halo" model, now often bought by people wanting the "most expensive 5-series", instead of wanting the "best 4-door saloon on the planet".
Their less-well off neighbours buy a 520d, in their eyes, exactly the same car.
I'd say that 1% of M5 owners buy them just because of the price tag. The other 99% buy them because they are one of THE best all round performance cars out there.The M5 is a "halo" model, now often bought by people wanting the "most expensive 5-series", instead of wanting the "best 4-door saloon on the planet".
Their less-well off neighbours buy a 520d, in their eyes, exactly the same car.
Contigo said:
I'd say that 1% of M5 owners buy them just because of the price tag. The other 99% buy them because they are one of THE best all round performance cars out there.
Sorry, I know two new M5 owners and both didn't know what the M button on their steering wheel did, which invalidates your point. I'm not saying they were WRONG to buy an M5, but the only reason they got one over the 535i is because they could, not because they wanted the "best".Same goes for for example a Touareg and the Cayenne, do you really think that the ones that go for the Cayenne do so because of the better driving experience, or is most of it down to badge and bragging rights?
Just to expand my original thought - the big manufacturers have always had mainstream models that produce their main volume and revenue of course...Porsche Cayenne, BMW 3 series etc, but the halo cars were still edgier than they are now. I fully accept that its a narrow marketplace for these less that fully practical cars, but it seems as if they are much more tightly aligned to the mainstream models than before. For example, the separate and unique M engines seem to be done, as are the Mezger dry sumps in the Porsche RS, as we move to tuned turbo versions of the base cars. As a result, the new models feel less special than their predecessors to me. ( Maybe I am still losing the plot
)
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