yep this one again - 993 C2S vs C4S?

[nickclondon]

Am sure this has been on here a few times. In fact I've read a few old posts. Apologies for repeating.

But I will be treating myself to a 993. More of a weekend car as a toy (yes i can get more car with 996/997) but i prefer the look of a 993. I love driving and i want a pure involving drive. Although the golf clubs will struggle to get in the car!

Question is between RWD vs AWD? Yes it does not snow that much in the UK, but rain we get a plenty of Anyway read the 4WD is slightly less involving etc. 2WD is purer variant.

Anyway thoughts from actual owners of both would be much appreciated. I will test drive both and the condition of the car is of upmost importance but interesting to hear views!

Ta, N

[jackal]

The c4s is quite a different experience... Well documented on here on past threads.

My pick would be a narrow body car either c2 or c4, followed by a c2s if you must have wb.

Edited by jackal on Saturday 30th June 22:31

[mrdemon]

993 C4S are quite rare and are a lot more expensive.

I really like the look, wide body, big reds etc really nice looking cars.

[blindspot]

Wouldn't over think the 2 v 4 thing, just get the best condition car you can find in your budget. There are a few nice touches on the 4s, but condition is more important. Have a look on 911uk's 993 forum, there's at least one chap who has recently gone from 2s to 4s as the result of an accident in the 2. He now feels more secure. Plenty of chaps think the 2 is a 'purer' car, but it's not like you'll be driving them back to back, and everyone agrees that either of the s variants are great. In summary - just find the best condition car you can. Don't worry about 2 v 4, you'll get a fantastic machine either way.

[jackal]

blindspot said:

Wouldn't over think the 2 v 4 thing,

I would normally agree with you but not when it comes to the wide bodies. The C4S is quite a heavy car with a fair bit more unsprung mass too. Don't under estimate the negative impact that both of those points bring to the party. The driving experience is VERY different from a C2S and even more different from a C2/C4. All the weight and running gear of the turbo but with none of the power. If you want to treat it as a tourer/ long distance A road car then fine (and I am sure there are happy owners out there, we all like different things) but don't expect a driving epiphany.

As always, drive them for yourself and decide.

Edited by jackal on Saturday 30th June 23:27

[mollytherocker]

For me, it has to be a RWD. I wouldnt buy a 4WD 911, to me its just wrong. Too heavy, corrupted steering, too much traction & grip (Yes really) and less of a challenge and less fun. Its subjective of course, and many like the 'security' of 4WD, but I think that is mostly psychological.

Front wheels steer and rear wheels drive, this gives the best driving experience to me for lots of reasons.

There are exceptions of course, but not on any 911.

MTR

[911F]

I have owned both of these cars, they are very different.

The C2S is quicker, and feels more agile, but the front does feel lighter.
It doesn't have the turbo brakes or suspension either.
It does have the painted split rear spoiler, which looks much better (imho)
The black calipers need to be red.
There are about 4 times more C2S' then there are C4S's

The C4S felt heavier, and is certainly slower.
It does however have full turbo running gear, Higher spec (18" Alloys, upgraded Sound pack etc)
It's also Rarer.

The sensation between the two cars is quite similar.

The newest car you will find will be almost 15 years old, So as said above, you are much better off looking for the best condition/best maintained car you can find.

Another thing to add, if you are fussy, they can be expensive to run, there are squeaks and rattles, funny bubbling oil noises, and old car smells..

There are lots of 993 Buying guides, so get familiar and go and have a look at a few.

Another thing to add, I also owned a C2 varioram - driving wise, it's the pick of the bunch..

[mohitos]

911F said:

It does have the painted split rear spoiler, which looks much better (imho)

I always wondered about this - does the C4S not have the split colour coded spoiler?

[mollytherocker]

mohitos said:

911F said:

It does have the painted split rear spoiler, which looks much better (imho)

I always wondered about this - does the C4S not have the split colour coded spoiler?

No.

MTR

[MrCooke]

mollytherocker said:

No.

But quite often yes.

As in they didn't but the painted split C2S one looks so much better that many have had it fitted.

I'm with Jackal - If you're buying on looks alone a C4S is fine, if you're buying partly on looks but care how it drives get a C2S on 17s, if you want the best drive you need a C2 pre-varioram on 16s.

This said, I have been dragged out of the odd over exuberant moment with the help of a 4WD 993 so for an all-year-round car I would probably look at 4WD.

[Shadow62]

911F said:

There are about 4 times more C2S' then there are 4S

That surprises me, the 4s was in production for much longer than the 2s. The 2s was a bit of a special edition for one year only (97/97).

I have had a couple of each and the one I wish Id kept was my first 2S manual.

[hot66]

mollytherocker said:

For me, it has to be a RWD. I wouldnt buy a 4WD 911, to me its just wrong. Too heavy, corrupted steering, too much traction & grip (Yes really) and less of a challenge and less fun. Its subjective of course, and many like the 'security' of 4WD, but I think that is mostly psychological.

Front wheels steer and rear wheels drive, this gives the best driving experience to me for lots of reasons.

There are exceptions of course, but not on any 911.

MTR

To a certain extend this might be the case .. I had a 993 C4 and loved it as it drove like a RWD car nearly all the time ... but , I did find the steering slightly dead at the straight ahead position. Did lots of adjustments to geometry but couldn't get rid of the dead spot ... wether there was something slightly wrong with the steering rack or wether it was a C4 trait I don't know

BUT ... I went onto a 996 Turbo after the 993 . It maybe another AWD , but it doesn't feel like one. On real roads, as opposed to the track, the steering feel is great and again it behaves like a rwd car ( only 5% drive to front wheels normally? ) A blanket statement of " Too heavy, corrupted steering, not as much fun" IMHO is incorrect & misleading to those who have not driven an AWD 911.

Bear in mind I have a 1972 2.4S in long term ownership, which is a car that probablly gives one of the purist 911 driving experiences, I think it is wrong to say an AWD 911 isn't a proper one. Its the same kind of bravado that people on Porsche forums spout when saying everyone should have a GT3 .... we are all different & drive in different ways. For my driving , the worst bit of traffic I occur is a 5 car que in the nearest town .... the rest is twist bumpy Dales roads, which on a dark night in the wet something like the turbo is perfect 911 for the job... I don't do track days ... I'm sure my requirements are hugely different to a lot of people.

People need to drive C4's and C2's to find which car they prefer and what kind of driving they enjoy / do

[mollytherocker]

hot66 said:

A blanket statement of " Too heavy, corrupted steering, not as much fun" IMHO is incorrect & misleading to those who have not driven an AWD 911.

We are all different & drive in different ways. I'm sure my requirements are hugely different to a lot of people.

People need to drive C4's and C2's to find which car they prefer and what kind of driving they enjoy / do

I totally agree with your comments above but I was giving my view, not what I think every one elses view should be.

I would wager that most buyers are best with a C4. But not me, thats all.

MTR

[nickclondon]

Thanks all for the advice. Really insightful and useful. Great to read so many informed passionate views. Definitely will be trying both S variants. The condition is critical though! They are difficult to find so I will be waiting for the right one. Some decent buying guides out there also.

This one, C2S, 117k mileage but in great nick is out there. Bit pricey at £31k I would say?? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3976384.htm

Again many thanks. Of course if anyone knows of any decent examples feel free to send my way. You all rock. One day soon I will see you somewhere for a long twisty drive

Take care & happy driving, Nick

[LaurasOtherHalf]

nickclondon said:

This one, C2S, 117k mileage but in great nick is out there. Bit pricey at £31k I would say?? http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3976384.htm

I spied that myself & it does look lovely, but definatly overpriced (when I was buying my 993 there was a 2S that used to belong a JCT director, paint to sample in mettalic guards red & every extra, went for around 22 grand with 115k on it (this was 2 year ago).

Plus, it might just be me, but reading the ad, the guy selling it comes across as a complete bell.

[Guybrush]

911F said:

I have owned both of these cars, they are very different.

The C2S is quicker, and feels more agile, but the front does feel lighter.
It doesn't have the turbo brakes or suspension either.
It does have the painted split rear spoiler, which looks much better (imho)
There are about 4 times more C2S' then there are C4S's

I don't think this is true. In the UK, there were 251 C2Ss, and I'm sure not 4 times fewer C4Ss.

911F said:

The C4S felt heavier, and is certainly slower.
It does however have full turbo running gear, Higher spec (18" Alloys, upgraded Sound pack etc)
It's also Rarer.

The C4S does not have the full turbo running gear.

Here's some detail, cribbed from Porsche Club GB forum:

Actually the C4S has the dampers from the M033 package (lowered chassis) and the springs are also M033 on the front and an exclusive refinement of the M033 rear springs with a rate of 36 N/mm. The anti-roll bars (20mm F / 18mm R) are standard C4 fodder, which practically means a thinner front anti-roll bar (compared to a std Carrera 2) to promote turn in and reduce under-steer. There is nothing about the suspension that compares with a turbo model. The Carrera S (i.e. 2S) does not have the std suspension of the Carrera coupe, but again has largely the same components as the C4S and an ordinary model (c2/targa/cabriolet/c4 coupe/cabriolet) that was ordered with the factory M033 (lowered chassis) option which Porsche state clearly lowers the ride height by 20mm rear and 10mm front for a visual enhancement and does not increase the harshness of the ride at all, hence no increase in spring rate or damper rate, indeed the dampers are only part of the package to stop the short springs from dislocating on full droop by way of a reduced piston rod length. The anti-roll bars of the Carrera S model (21mm F / 18mm R) are the same as all other 2 wheel drive standard variants.

To achieve turbo like suspension on either model requires the optional M030 (sport chassis) to be fitted and even then you don't get the rear springs or rear anti-roll bar of a turbo model.

The brakes of the C4S are not lifted directly from the turbo model but rather follow the form of the four wheel-drive models with their hydraulic brake servo system as opposed to the 2 wheel drive models Vacuum servo. The discs and callipers / pads are taken from the turbo model, the rest is C4 with a further reduction in rear switch-over pressure from the C4's 45 bar to 40 bar for the C4S, the turbo is 55 bar and oddly enough the standard 2 wheel-drive models are 40 bar all with a reduction factor of .46 . The brakes feel more powerful because the pedal pressure is multiplied by a factor of 4.8:1 on all four wheel-drive variants and only 3.15:1 on two wheel-drive ones.
The RS model shares the C4 hydraulic system but with a reduction in pressure multiplication to a figure of 3.6:1, so evidently the development driver found the four wheel drive settings to be "over servoed".
I believe the "more planted" "less floaty" feel of the C4S model is directly attributed to the extra weight of the car and its extras and four wheel-drive hardware balancing the weight out more evenly between front and rear. I am sure all owners would agree a full tank of fuel and tyres with a generous tread depth soften the ride of our cars noticeably.

[smilyduck]

993 C4s is rare and just better looking inside(i.e full dashboard leather...) and outside(i.e big red breaks, 18 inches wheel...).

Edited by smilyduck on Sunday 1st July 23:38

[FleshMechanic]

smilyduck said:

994 C4s is rare and just better looking inside(i.e full dashboard leather...) and outside(i.e big red breaks, 18 inches wheel...).

So rare, that I've never heard of them before.

[mollytherocker]

smilyduck said:

994 C4s is rare and just better looking inside(i.e full dashboard leather...) and outside(i.e big red breaks, 18 inches wheel...).

The 'because its rare' argument is an interesting one. It doesn't mean a better car, but it adds a 'specialness' which is hard to justify or quantify.

MTR

[blindminkey]

181 c4s in rhd, yet greater production numbers than 2s in left and right, so just rarer here than the rest of the world, love mine and prefer the drive to the 2s, wide body with reds and all the trimmings, yum yum!