So expensive is this helicopter malarkey then?

[toppstuff]

I don't mean a piston helicopter like a Robinson - a had a ride in an R22 once and the cramped conditions and lack of personal space ( the pilot was a bit smelly ) leads me to think that only a proper turbine will do.

And I would like more than one engine.

So, lets say an Augusta 109 or a Eurocopter EC135, that kind of thing.

I am sure to buy they would be the price of a nice house, but on the basis that kit like this should always be leased / rented, how much would it cost to have unlimited use of one of these babies, with it living in a shed at the edge of my enormous estate?

Edited by toppstuff on Monday 2nd July 19:33

[anonymous-user]

Seem to recall my mate, who flies the Glasgow copper chopper, said something like £4m a year to keep their EC135 in the air.

[FourWheelDrift]

Mini-gun and grenade launcher re-fills can really empty the pockets.

http://www.courtesyaircraft.com/Current%20Inventor...

[Super Slo Mo]

Rental costs for something like a Squirrel or Jetranger will be in the region of £1-2k per hour. If you wanted unlimited use, you could agree an annual hire basis to have the machine completely at your disposal, this is what SKY and the BBC do with their camera helicopters (both from the same company).

[Zad]

Yep, a Jet Ranger costs about £1k/hr "wet".

[Super Slo Mo]

Zad said:

Yep, a Jet Ranger costs about £1k/hr "wet".

You know, I don't think that's changed much in 10 years or more. It always used to be the case that we quoted clients £1k per hour when dealing with aerial filming enquiries. I left that particular employer in late 2001, although they didn't actually own any heli's, but rented them with a pilot as required. It's likely that 10 years ago they included a bit of a margin for themselves.

[anonymous-user]

Crossflow Kid said:

Seem to recall my mate, who flies the Glasgow copper chopper, said something like £4m a year to keep their EC135 in the air.

They fly quite a lot of hours and have quite a few staff for £4m I would imagine.

If you have £30m in the bank, a second hand Agusta 109 is affordable to buy (costs about the same as an R66 to buy), but not sure about to run, although I was speaking to a 109 pilot the other day and he said it was 220kg of fuel per hour.

Main problem on more expensive helicopters is when something goes wrong you can quickly have a bill running in to 6 figures.

[Zad]

Yep, the maintenance / repair bills are the main problem. You can get a high-hours airframe machine quite cheaply, but maintaining it to the standard that it needs is a different matter.

[Fun Bus]

Zad said:

Yep, a Jet Ranger costs about £1k/hr "wet".

'Wet' as in fuel included in the costs I assume?

[mattdaniels]

Super Slo Mo said:

Rental costs for something like a Squirrel or Jetranger will be in the region of £1-2k per hour. If you wanted unlimited use, you could agree an annual hire basis to have the machine completely at your disposal, this is what SKY and the BBC do with their camera helicopters (both from the same company).

BBC use Mike Smith's (he of Saturday Superstore / Radio 1 / Sarah Green fame) outfit certainly for some of their aerial filming (eg. Top Gear). Their R44 is £2000 all inclusive for 2 hours then £65 per six minutes thereafter. Their twin is an AS355 which is £6000 for 2 hours. That's the published rate card, I'm sure there's some discounts negotiated.

Obviously wet hire for a "non tv" helichopper will be a bit cheaper!

[WestYorkie]

Simonspider had a thread about running a jet ranger here...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Super Slo Mo]

mattdaniels said:

BBC use Mike Smith's (he of Saturday Superstore / Radio 1 / Sarah Green fame) outfit certainly for some of their aerial filming (eg. Top Gear). Their R44 is £2000 all inclusive for 2 hours then £65 per six minutes thereafter. Their twin is an AS355 which is £6000 for 2 hours. That's the published rate card, I'm sure there's some discounts negotiated.

Obviously wet hire for a "non tv" helichopper will be a bit cheaper!

Sorry, I should have explained in more detail. I meant the BBC and SKY News choppers. Both are AS355's. They're fully liveried up, and permanently on standby. It's not the Mike Smith operation, although I understood he was significantly cheaper than the rates you quoted, given that you can get a camera equipped (cineflex, plus camera operator) R44 for £850 for the first hour, and £650 thereafter, ex VAT (Mike's supposed to be cheaper than this so I understand, but that might be, as you say, after discounts).

[anonymous-user]

bulldong said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Seem to recall my mate, who flies the Glasgow copper chopper, said something like £4m a year to keep their EC135 in the air.

They fly quite a lot of hours and have quite a few staff for £4m I would imagine.

Hours are irrelevant in terms of overall cost as a forecast annual allowance is factored in to the contract.
Not that many staff either and the observer and/or paramedic are paid for elsewhere, but it's the 24/7 aspect (as per the OP's scenario) that makes it pricey.

[toppstuff]

£1k to £2k an hour is a lot of change.

So if I buy an old but still good A109 for, say, £600k, how much would it cost to run?

Cost per hour?

Annual maintainance?

[anonymous-user]

Crossflow Kid said:

bulldong said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Seem to recall my mate, who flies the Glasgow copper chopper, said something like £4m a year to keep their EC135 in the air.

They fly quite a lot of hours and have quite a few staff for £4m I would imagine.

Hours are irrelevant in terms of overall cost as a forecast annual allowance is factored in to the contract.
Not that many staff either and the observer and/or paramedic are paid for elsewhere, but it's the 24/7 aspect (as per the OP's scenario) that makes it pricey.

I don't think the direct operating costs of the machine can exceed £1500/hour, and from talking to various people, I would say it could be almost half of that (£800-£1000). Can't find anything to back it up but the 135 is known for relatively low costs which is what makes them popular.

In that respect, the helicopter would need to be in the air for 2500hours a year or so, which is 4 months continuous airtime. I can't imagine that to be the case. Or maybe I am just being naive.

[anonymous-user]

toppstuff said:

£1k to £2k an hour is a lot of change.

So if I buy an old but still good A109 for, say, £600k, how much would it cost to run?

Cost per hour?

Annual maintainance?

Depends what needs replacing at any one time which is one of the beauties of the Robinson... it's more or less predictable.

With most helicopters, components time out at different times and need to be replaced. One time you may just take it for a service and it only needs an oil change, the next you may need a set of Tension-torsion straps if it's a Jet Ranger (which are literally pieces of rubber with two holes in the end) and it will cost you $7k. Read SimonSpyder's thread on his experience with a Jet Ranger.

So it is difficult to say.

[Super Slo Mo]

toppstuff said:

£1k to £2k an hour is a lot of change.

So if I buy an old but still good A109 for, say, £600k, how much would it cost to run?

Cost per hour?

Annual maintainance?

Well, if the quoted fuel consumption made by a poster above is correct (and I know little enough about the AS355's/Jet Rangers, let alone an A109), at 220 kg/hour, that's about 270 litres per hour, which at £0.60 per litre (rough guess, fuel is kerosene, more or less) is £170 in fuel per hour.

It's not just the fuel costs on these things that is expensive, it's the regular maintenance, plus the full strip down (not sure how periodic) that rapidly eats into your budget, not to mention insurance, a commercial pilot, registering the aircraft for commercial use (I think) etc. I'd imagine there is decent enough profit in running a heli commercially, but you need deep pockets in the first place.

Having the blades crack tested is something like £10k per blade, as happened to the security heli at Silverstone last year when some drunk punters were spotted swinging off the blades overnight (machine was immediately grounded, and had to be taken away on a flatbed). They were guesstimating that overall cost of stripping, moving the heli, testing, and re-building of the head would run to about £100k, although it's not something I would be able to offer a qualified view on, since I'm just passing on the gist of the discussion shortly after it happened.

[simonspider]

In my practical experience if you wish to own and maintain a smaller Jet Turbine helicopter such as a Jet Ranger and use it for 100/150hours flying time a year (about average for a private owner) then you need to budget for £100,000 over that period.In addition it's wise to always have £30 grand or so to cover any unexpected bills.
Worth pointing out it only takes one hot start caused by a lack of concentration to incur a bill of easily five figures. Then there's the routine maintenance, annual service (mine was £7000 which was light) and airworthiness directives which can land at any time no pun intended, meaning compulsory maintenance. Insurance is dependent on experience of course but is usually £12-20grand a year. My JR was on an air operators certificate meaning money can be earned from public transport work but at the expense of even more rigorous maintenance.
Having said all that I'll miss mine. It's been sold to a chap in New Zealand where it'll be used for heli-hunting game etc and is being loaded on a ship on Friday. I've learned a lot about helicopter ownership from it and made a few mistakes I won't make again

[simonspider]

I would add that I know an ex owner of a twin engined Agusta 109 which almost bankrupted him in 18 months. He reckons in that time it cost him £300grand to keep airworthy.

[Fun Bus]

I read your thread about parting with it and was really interesting. You mentioned there too about 'hot starts' which I'm interested about so I'm off to Google the potentially expensive problem.

It's a complex process starting and operating a turbine powered helicopter!

http://helicopterflight.net/turbine_transition.htm

Edited by Fun Bus on Monday 2nd July 22:54

Edited by Fun Bus on Monday 2nd July 22:55