Advice - Reclaiming study costs
Discussion
Afternoon guys,
Would like some advice please.
I am unfortunately leaving my current employer - they are going through a headcount reduction and the roles for a qualified accountant are now very few and far between and I was placed 'at risk'. As such I have accepted a new role external to the company.
Whilst at this employer I undertook some CIMA tuition and exams, passing them. I was never given any pay rise to express my qualified status, but with the prospect of a promotion I didn't mind.
In December a manager came in, and upon taking my final exam in February I was presented with a 'study agreement', which outlines that the employer is able to take back a proportion of the costs if I leave, which I duly signed.
For the exams before this no agreement was given to me and indeed I was never informed that there was a policy in place by any previous management, nor when I joined. My contract does not state anything on the matter. To reiterate my contract does not cover anything to do with training/ study costs let alone reclaiming any such costs.
However now I am leaving the company I have been told the company will deduct a proportion of the costs from the tuition and exams from February - which I am not disputing as I signed this agreement - and a proportion of the costs from previous exams in November, when no agreement was signed or made aware of.
They are also, in the ultimate expression of pettiness claiming back a proportion of my CIMA subscription - £30... Obviously I wasn't paid any extra for all the extra hours I put in with a value far surpassing £30!
My question is, how can they legally expect to be able to claim back costs from the earlier exams, with nothing in the contract and with no course agreement or any such communication that this could happen in place? If I'd known this was possible before I joined or during my time I would have negotiated a sign on fee from my new employers to cover this cost, however I did not and therefore have not.
Obviously I have said I do not accept this deduction of the November exams and the response is to threaten me with being hit with ALL costs of all exams and tuition etc - empty threat imo.
Regards
Ed
Would like some advice please.
I am unfortunately leaving my current employer - they are going through a headcount reduction and the roles for a qualified accountant are now very few and far between and I was placed 'at risk'. As such I have accepted a new role external to the company.
Whilst at this employer I undertook some CIMA tuition and exams, passing them. I was never given any pay rise to express my qualified status, but with the prospect of a promotion I didn't mind.
In December a manager came in, and upon taking my final exam in February I was presented with a 'study agreement', which outlines that the employer is able to take back a proportion of the costs if I leave, which I duly signed.
For the exams before this no agreement was given to me and indeed I was never informed that there was a policy in place by any previous management, nor when I joined. My contract does not state anything on the matter. To reiterate my contract does not cover anything to do with training/ study costs let alone reclaiming any such costs.
However now I am leaving the company I have been told the company will deduct a proportion of the costs from the tuition and exams from February - which I am not disputing as I signed this agreement - and a proportion of the costs from previous exams in November, when no agreement was signed or made aware of.
They are also, in the ultimate expression of pettiness claiming back a proportion of my CIMA subscription - £30... Obviously I wasn't paid any extra for all the extra hours I put in with a value far surpassing £30!
My question is, how can they legally expect to be able to claim back costs from the earlier exams, with nothing in the contract and with no course agreement or any such communication that this could happen in place? If I'd known this was possible before I joined or during my time I would have negotiated a sign on fee from my new employers to cover this cost, however I did not and therefore have not.
Obviously I have said I do not accept this deduction of the November exams and the response is to threaten me with being hit with ALL costs of all exams and tuition etc - empty threat imo.
Regards
Ed
Are you being selected for redundancy by the employer or have you jumped before they decide who goes?
If they are still selecting can you hint you want to go - hence being made redundant. If they make you redundant it would be unlikely they would make you pay back the training/exam costs.
They should also have discussed this training costs and payback prior to you starting the training.
If they are still selecting can you hint you want to go - hence being made redundant. If they make you redundant it would be unlikely they would make you pay back the training/exam costs.
They should also have discussed this training costs and payback prior to you starting the training.
At the end of the day they put you in a position that threatened your job - I think costs are wholly down to them and that they are indeed being petty.
I believe the law is that they cannot make a deduction without your permission so I'd write and tell them that - I'd also point out that you did not receive a payrise following qualification and that if they wish to persue then you will go for the backdated payrise.
Just walk and don't look back and ignore any further demands - they won't chase you.
I believe the law is that they cannot make a deduction without your permission so I'd write and tell them that - I'd also point out that you did not receive a payrise following qualification and that if they wish to persue then you will go for the backdated payrise.
Just walk and don't look back and ignore any further demands - they won't chase you.
Pablo, I am leaving before the outcome of the restructure is known, this is due to the roles that I would progress into no longer existing - I.e. there is v few qualified accountant roles available & so I need to go externally.
Élan - thank you, confirmed my suspicions, I intend to state they are not to deduct anything above & beyond the proportion from the February exam.
I was today threatened with them chasing me for ALL costs of study - I.e. tuition, exams, study leave etc if I didn't cough up. I have called their bluff on this & said if they go down this path it will end in legal action & as this is not stated in my contract or any other agreement they will lose.
Their argument being that by allowing them to pay for the tuition I entered into an agreement whether Inknew it or not! Tosh.
Élan - thank you, confirmed my suspicions, I intend to state they are not to deduct anything above & beyond the proportion from the February exam.
I was today threatened with them chasing me for ALL costs of study - I.e. tuition, exams, study leave etc if I didn't cough up. I have called their bluff on this & said if they go down this path it will end in legal action & as this is not stated in my contract or any other agreement they will lose.
Their argument being that by allowing them to pay for the tuition I entered into an agreement whether Inknew it or not! Tosh.
Eddw86 said:
Pablo, I am leaving before the outcome of the restructure is known, this is due to the roles that I would progress into no longer existing - I.e. there is v few qualified accountant roles available & so I need to go externally.
Why can you not wait until the end of the consultation period before leaving? I understand that you view it as a foregone conclusion but you would entitled to severance and it would then be unreasonable for them to claim back tuition costs.Put it in writing, state you made no agreement, ask them to provide documented evidence of such a right to reclaim these expenses that you have signed.
As they seem to be playing silly buggers, you are best stating that should anything be deducted without agreement you will file a smalls claim court claim.
I take it you have found a new role?
As they seem to be playing silly buggers, you are best stating that should anything be deducted without agreement you will file a smalls claim court claim.
I take it you have found a new role?
Hi guys,
Apologies taken a few days to reply.
I met with the HR manager today who is saying that by allowing the company to pay for my exams I entered in to an agreement and therefore they can deduct what they want!
I've argued saying that their policy was not followed as it was not disclosed to me and no agreement was signed. I've also stated that I could not have agreed to this agreement purely by letting them pay for the exams as I could not make a considered decision to partake in this 'agreement' without all the facts with which to make a decision.
However they have stated that they are going to deduct this regardless of what I say, basically trying to get me to back down.
They have threatened to pursue me for all costs once again, which I think is just silly buggers.
As for me leaving - I am indeed leaving before they made me redundant, the redundancy pay would have been just one months pay, therefore it would have been a risk to wait until the end before finding a job and a good one came up.
If the roles that I was originally looking to move up to still existed I would not have needed to have left.
This is alongside reducing my bonus by about the same amount as they are trying to claim now due to an objective not being met. The reason this objective wasn't met? The objective was to manage the roll out of a new computer program/ toold ot be used across the Sales and finance functions. The tool wasn't ready and is only now being considered for roll out. Effectively it couldnt be met, so rather than basing it on something else they just didnt pay out.
Makes me glad to be leaving.
Apologies taken a few days to reply.
I met with the HR manager today who is saying that by allowing the company to pay for my exams I entered in to an agreement and therefore they can deduct what they want!
I've argued saying that their policy was not followed as it was not disclosed to me and no agreement was signed. I've also stated that I could not have agreed to this agreement purely by letting them pay for the exams as I could not make a considered decision to partake in this 'agreement' without all the facts with which to make a decision.
However they have stated that they are going to deduct this regardless of what I say, basically trying to get me to back down.
They have threatened to pursue me for all costs once again, which I think is just silly buggers.
As for me leaving - I am indeed leaving before they made me redundant, the redundancy pay would have been just one months pay, therefore it would have been a risk to wait until the end before finding a job and a good one came up.
If the roles that I was originally looking to move up to still existed I would not have needed to have left.
This is alongside reducing my bonus by about the same amount as they are trying to claim now due to an objective not being met. The reason this objective wasn't met? The objective was to manage the roll out of a new computer program/ toold ot be used across the Sales and finance functions. The tool wasn't ready and is only now being considered for roll out. Effectively it couldnt be met, so rather than basing it on something else they just didnt pay out.
Makes me glad to be leaving.
The latest update is the HR manager and my manager were supposed to be havng a meeting first thing this afternoon to discuss this before payroll shut this evening then discuss further with me.
Guess who went home at lunch time and has ignored my calls and not got in touch as promised? The HR manager.
My manager has just appeared back at her desk after being away the last 3 hours, and guess what payroll has shut...
f
king bds. They are going to deduct it without my agreement and ignored me all day to make the problem go away.
Guess who went home at lunch time and has ignored my calls and not got in touch as promised? The HR manager.
My manager has just appeared back at her desk after being away the last 3 hours, and guess what payroll has shut...
f
king bds. They are going to deduct it without my agreement and ignored me all day to make the problem go away. Eddw86 said:
The latest update is the HR manager and my manager were supposed to be havng a meeting first thing this afternoon to discuss this before payroll shut this evening then discuss further with me.
Guess who went home at lunch time and has ignored my calls and not got in touch as promised? The HR manager.
My manager has just appeared back at her desk after being away the last 3 hours, and guess what payroll has shut...
fking bds. They are going to deduct it without my agreement and ignored me all day to make the problem go away.
Id be calling the CAB for advice, or maybe even cima themselves.Guess who went home at lunch time and has ignored my calls and not got in touch as promised? The HR manager.
My manager has just appeared back at her desk after being away the last 3 hours, and guess what payroll has shut...
f
king bds. They are going to deduct it without my agreement and ignored me all day to make the problem go away. Rules for making deductions from your pay
Your employer is not allowed to make a deduction from your pay or wages unless:
it is required or allowed by law, for example National Insurance, income tax or student loan repayments
you agree in writing to a deduction
your contract of employment says they can
it is a result of any statutory disciplinary proceedings
there is a statutory payment due to a public authority
you have not worked due to taking part in a strike or industrial action
it is to recover an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses
it is a result of a court order or Employment Tribunal decision
These are the rules for deductions from pay from the .gov website
Your employer is not allowed to make a deduction from your pay or wages unless:
it is required or allowed by law, for example National Insurance, income tax or student loan repayments
you agree in writing to a deduction
your contract of employment says they can
it is a result of any statutory disciplinary proceedings
there is a statutory payment due to a public authority
you have not worked due to taking part in a strike or industrial action
it is to recover an earlier overpayment of wages or expenses
it is a result of a court order or Employment Tribunal decision
These are the rules for deductions from pay from the .gov website
elanfan said:
Great stuff NA
Edww - put that in writing to them and tell them you will see them in court if they don't adhere to it.
Sound like a right bunch of tts - you are better off outa there
I think that the employer knows when they are allowed to make a deduction and when they are not.Edww - put that in writing to them and tell them you will see them in court if they don't adhere to it.
Sound like a right bunch of t
ts - you are better off outa thereIn the OP's case they are using the 'Study Agreement' as proof that the OP has agreed (in writing) to the deduction.
Depending on the amount of money involved I would speak to a solicitor specialising in employment matters.
ralphrj said:
I think that the employer knows when they are allowed to make a deduction and when they are not.
In the OP's case they are using the 'Study Agreement' as proof that the OP has agreed (in writing) to the deduction.
Depending on the amount of money involved I would speak to a solicitor specialising in employment matters.
Never make any assumption that an employer will have followed the rules, especially if the company s struggling financially, in an ideal world everyone would do things right, but we dont live in an ideal world.In the OP's case they are using the 'Study Agreement' as proof that the OP has agreed (in writing) to the deduction.
Depending on the amount of money involved I would speak to a solicitor specialising in employment matters.
They will cite the agreement, however the agreement never stated it was retrospective.
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