997s mod to GTS dreams.

[911fan]

Hi All,

What would it take to modify a manual 05 997s to the similar performance level of a GTS manual please? I hear that the RS centre-locks are completely cost-prohibitive bcse of the other alterations required.

Some approx cost would also be appreciated from the "shopping list" Cheers.

[Ekona]

Fit the X51 kit to get you to 380bhp
Change exhaust for something light, dropping the cats too
Strip the interior of everything to get the weight down
Fit the adjustable bits and bobs on the suspension from the GT3
Fit sticky rubber
Should give you a similar power to weight ratio, and because of the lighter weight & suspension changes might handle better


Job jobbed.

[mohitos]

Ekona said:

Fit the X51 kit to get you to 380bhp
Change exhaust for something light, dropping the cats too
Strip the interior of everything to get the weight down
Fit the adjustable bits and bobs on the suspension from the GT3
Fit sticky rubber
Should give you a similar power to weight ratio, and because of the lighter weight & suspension changes might handle better


Job jobbed.

Wouldn't that be GT3 spec, not GTS?

I think a conversion to GTS spec would prove prohibitively expensive. Wheels alone and centre hub conversion would cost a fortune. GTS is wide bodied. Power kit would get you to 408bhp ot 380bhp but again cost a fortune.

[khushy]

and a GTS sticker!

[Ekona]

mohitos said:

Wouldn't that be GT3 spec, not GTS?

I think a conversion to GTS spec would prove prohibitively expensive. Wheels alone and centre hub conversion would cost a fortune. GTS is wide bodied. Power kit would get you to 408bhp ot 380bhp but again cost a fortune.

He said GTS-performance, not GTS-spec

[mohitos]

Ekona said:

He said GTS-performance, not GTS-spec

But then mentions centre lock wheels

[monthefish]

mohitos said:

Ekona said:

He said GTS-performance, not GTS-spec

But then mentions centre lock wheels

Perhaps the performance measure is ‘time to change a wheel’




Other than the wheels, it wouldn't take much to get a basic 997 to GTS performance.

[mohitos]

For me the distinction is related more to the handling than the outright speed. My 997 C2S and subsequent GTS could not have handled more differently.

[Blue62]

mohitos said:

For me the distinction is related more to the handling than the outright speed. My 997 C2S and subsequent GTS could not have handled more differently.

this

Agree with this, it's about handling. Wouldn't you be better off waiting a while and trying to snaffle one up when values drop a bit further?

[Ian_UK1]

monthefish said:

Other than the wheels, it wouldn't take much to get a basic 997 to GTS performance.

IMHO you'd be struggling to get a Gen-1 Carrera S to anywhere near GTS straight line pace.

Firstly, PDK gives the GTS a big, straight-line advantage so your Gen-1 would need quite a bit more power than the GTS to stay with it - and therein lies the problem. Factory X-51 will only give you 380BHP and costs an arm and a leg. If you didn't want to go the X-51 route, all the various bolt-on aftermarket bits (intake, map, exhaust manifolds, 200-cell cats, etc.) added together will only give about 380BHP too (despite all the BS claims). From memory, the GTS with DFI/X-51 is a 408BHP car and it has more torque then the Gen-1 throughout the whole rpm band. A 380BHP Gen-1 wouldn't get close.

To match or better the GTS for outright performance, you'd need to go forced induction or go for heads/cams/headers/exhaust/intake/remap.

As for suspension, I agree with the comments above - GT3 adjustable bits - but you'd also need to replace the Gen-1s dampers with something better too. Damptronic coilovers might do the trick. Once the car's lowered, cornerweighted and has an appropriate geo setup it should handle even better than the GTS.

But for the money, time and inconvenience all the above would cost, surely it would make more sense to trade-in the Gen-1 S against a good Gen-1 Turbo? Better than GTS performance guaranteed....

Edited by Ian_UK1 on Friday 6th July 14:33

[danielw]

I don't mean to be sceptical, but the real world difference between a 408BHP 997 and a 380BHP 997 must be marginal at best.

Ian_UK1 said:

IMHO you'd be struggling to get a Gen-1 Carrera S to anywhere near GTS straight line pace.

... From memory, the GTS with DFI/X-51 is a 408BHP car and it has more torque then the Gen-1 throughout the whole rpm band.... A 380BHP Gen-1 wouldn't get close.

To match or better the GTS for outright performance, you'd need to go forced induction or go for heads/cams/headers/exhaust/intake/remap.

Edited by Ian_UK1 on Friday 6th July 14:33

[monthefish]

Ian_UK1 said:

monthefish said:

Other than the wheels, it wouldn't take much to get a basic 997 to GTS performance.

IMHO you'd be struggling to get a Gen-1 Carrera S to anywhere near GTS straight line pace.

Richard Meadens Evo test of the car said:

The engine isn’t night and day different from the regular 3.8-litre Carrera S motor, but the 23bhp gain is noticeable and welcome.

It's the same with the handling. They're both RWD 997's on the same chassis. Admittedly the GTS has some nice 'tweaks' in the suspension dept, but they're not night and day as some (usually owners) would try to have you believe.

[Blue62]

monthefish said:

It's the same with the handling. They're both RWD 997's on the same chassis. Admittedly the GTS has some nice 'tweaks' in the suspension dept, but they're not night and day as some (usually owners) would try to have you believe.

The GTS is wide bodied with wider track, bit more than a tweak.

[monthefish]

Blue62 said:

monthefish said:

It's the same with the handling. They're both RWD 997's on the same chassis. Admittedly the GTS has some nice 'tweaks' in the suspension dept, but they're not night and day as some (usually owners) would try to have you believe.

The GTS is wide bodied with wider track, bit more than a tweak.

Yes, you're right, a whole 32mm.

i.e. this much per side |-----|

My mistake, it must handle like a different car entirely.

[Blue62]

monthefish said:

Yes, you're right, a whole 32mm.

i.e. this much per side |-----|

My mistake, it must handle like a different car entirely.

Afraid it does mate, although mine also had LSD which is not standard set up. The wider track makes a big difference, along with firmer set up and anti-roll bars it makes the car a lot more grippy than a standard 997.

[MadMark911]

911fan said:

Hi All,

What would it take to modify a manual 05 997s to the similar performance level of a GTS manual please? I hear that the RS centre-locks are completely cost-prohibitive bcse of the other alterations required.

Some approx cost would also be appreciated from the "shopping list" Cheers.

It's just not worth it as you'll throw £10K at it that you won't get back! As others have pointed out - it's hard just to get the power figure (without the super efficient DFI engine and with one that is more fragile when stressed by additional torque), let alone the wider body, track, suspension and interior changes.

A Gen II C4S with the powerpack might be a halfway house? It will give you a closer "look", still won't quite be a GTS.

Simple choice is that a nice GTS is probably triple the value of your current car, a Gen II C4S is probably double. At those levels you can get a nice GT3 or Turbo!

[Ian_UK1]

danielw said:

I don't mean to be sceptical, but the real world difference between a 408BHP 997 and a 380BHP 997 must be marginal at best.

In general terms, this would be true, but we're not comparing like for like here.

Remember the Gen-2 engine is the DFI lump and the Gen-1 the in-port FI M97. Whilst the X-51 Gen-2 engine is only nominally 28BHP more powerful than the X-51 M96, it is a torquier unit and this extra pull across the rpm band makes a bigger difference to overall performance than the small nominal difference in peak power output would suggest.

[Ian_UK1]

monthefish said:

It's the same with the handling. They're both RWD 997's on the same chassis. Admittedly the GTS has some nice 'tweaks' in the suspension dept, but they're not night and day as some (usually owners) would try to have you believe.

Have to disagree on this one. (Don't I seem contrary today)?! If we're comparing a Gen-2 997S with a GTS then I'd agree with you completely - the differences are small and subtle. Compared to a Gen-1 997S however, even a Gen-2 997S is night-and-day different where the efficiency of the damping is concerned. The PASM MkI in the Gen-1 is nowhere near as good as the PASM MkII in the Gen-2.

[monthefish]

Ian_UK1 said:

monthefish said:

It's the same with the handling. They're both RWD 997's on the same chassis. Admittedly the GTS has some nice 'tweaks' in the suspension dept, but they're not night and day as some (usually owners) would try to have you believe.

Have to disagree on this one. (Don't I seem contrary today)?! If we're comparing a Gen-2 997S with a GTS then I'd agree with you completely - the differences are small and subtle. Compared to a Gen-1 997S however, even a Gen-2 997S is night-and-day different where the efficiency of the damping is concerned. The PASM MkI in the Gen-1 is nowhere near as good as the PASM MkII in the Gen-2.

You're missing the point I'm trying to make. (perhaps I'm not being clear).

The owners may very well feel like it's 'night and day', but put mr average car enthusiast in there and the two will be all but identical, even those who know a bit about cars. To joe public, they will feel exactly the same. That is the point.

It is impossible to create an entirely different car with a limited budget, end of life, refresh. Some say it handles better (usually the owners); others have said they prefer the purity of the narrower track.

Anyway, we are way off topic here. The fact is it wouldn't take much to get a 997 to (roughly speaking) the performance of a GTS. The GTS isn't some turbo/GT3 worrying supercar remember - it is just a slightly better (in some eyes) base model.

[Gibbo205]

Ian_UK1 said:

Have to disagree on this one. (Don't I seem contrary today)?! If we're comparing a Gen-2 997S with a GTS then I'd agree with you completely - the differences are small and subtle. Compared to a Gen-1 997S however, even a Gen-2 997S is night-and-day different where the efficiency of the damping is concerned. The PASM MkI in the Gen-1 is nowhere near as good as the PASM MkII in the Gen-2.

The dampers / PASM on the gen1 is definetely a weakness, it either just seems to soft or to hard. Wheras the newer cars seem to sit well in the middle.

But I've driven a gen2 997, admittedly not a GTS but I did not find it night and day better over my 997.1 C2S which is on stock suspension, all my car has in its favour for handling is aerokit, ceramics, had the GEO setup and is running Michelin Supersports, plus it got 5mm spacers on the rear and 7mm on the front, so effectively widening the track. The gen2 car I drove was on steels and Bridgestones, I found the damping was better, but not night and day, plus if anything it had less grip, though no doubt down to tyres. But overall I preferred how my car handled and gripped over the gen2 I drove. Admittedly I am sure a 997.2 C2S with aerokit, ceramics, michelins, spacers and geo handles superb and the GTS even better.

To improve the 997.1 S further I suppose you could look at even bigger wheel spacers, but at which point do you go too big? On the GTS how do Porsche achieve the wider track, I am sure its not just wheel spacers?

GT3 997.2 roll bars front and rear will certainly help, does the GTS run the GT3 bars?

GT3 lower arms for more negative front camber. What is the front negative camber on the GTS out of interest?

Then we move to the PASM 2 found on the 997.2 / GTS cars, will this fit a 997.1 car, or what 3rd party offers a setup which is as good or better than the 997.2 for both road/track use?

Can't think of anything else the GTS has apart from the better powerplant, but that does not change the handling. But a 997.1 C2S with X51 against a GTS manual in a straight line will not be night and different, they'd perform very similar, but the extra power/torque would be welcomed in the GTS and noticable for sure, but a GTS will not walk away from a sorted 997.1 C2S with bolt-ons or X51, unless it was the PDK version then yes the PDK will be noticable faster.

For example a Cayman R with PDK keeps up with me to about 100 leptons in the 997.1 C2S manual, only beyond this the 911 starts to really stretch its legs.

Edited by Gibbo205 on Friday 6th July 18:00

Edited by Gibbo205 on Friday 6th July 18:03