Big Engined Executive Express and LPG ?
Discussion
Trolling over Pistonheads , Autotrader and eBay as we all do , I was struck by the tumbling prices of some of the biggest and fastest cars I've always hankered after. I talking about the likes of executive monsters such as the Mercedes S500, CL500's /600's including the AMG variants , the fab Audi S8 and dare I say the M5 .
Have a look at what you can pick up for £5 to £8k and any petrol-head will start salivating ! .
I was wondering if these fine beasts , that originally cost about £50 grand plus , are just going to become extinct as a result of the ever rising cost of fuel and how anyone could afford to run such a monster. At 15 - 20 ish mpg and a hefty insurance hit , what is to become of them ?
I then started looking at LPG conversions , a decent one could set you back 2 grand and you have to do the sums and work out when it would eventually pay for itself. ( Unless you managed to get one already done of course ).
I'd be really interested to hear some views and maybe even some experiences with trying his out. I guess some purists could well be horrified at the concept , but like I said what is the likely alternative fate of these cars ? .
Have a look at what you can pick up for £5 to £8k and any petrol-head will start salivating ! .
I was wondering if these fine beasts , that originally cost about £50 grand plus , are just going to become extinct as a result of the ever rising cost of fuel and how anyone could afford to run such a monster. At 15 - 20 ish mpg and a hefty insurance hit , what is to become of them ?
I then started looking at LPG conversions , a decent one could set you back 2 grand and you have to do the sums and work out when it would eventually pay for itself. ( Unless you managed to get one already done of course ).
I'd be really interested to hear some views and maybe even some experiences with trying his out. I guess some purists could well be horrified at the concept , but like I said what is the likely alternative fate of these cars ? .
Been there, done it, Alpina B10 V8 converted to LPG.
Don't even think about it unless
a) you do a *lot* of miles
or
b) you will be keeping the car for a long time
or
c) both
Payback time on a good conversion, and it will need to be a good one to run a high end engine properly, will be in the region of 30k miles so you need to drive a lot of miles before you actually save a penny. Two grand is optimistic for a good conversion on a big V8, closer to three grand in reality for a good system.
It's all about personal circumstances, if you don't do that many miles then think about how much fuel the cost of the conversion buys you and consider very carefully whether it's actually worth doing. Too many people get hung up on the cost of fuel and don't think about the bigger picture. LPG doesn't really add that much value at resale time either, you'll get a few hundred back on the kit but nothing like what it cost to install.
The really hard part with getting a car converted to LPG is finding someone you can trust to do the work. My lot were fine although sadly they have moved out of the area now but horror stories abound.
Ask about engine management lights, if the installer says something like "it might come on but it's nothing to worry about, they all do that" then run away. Don't walk. Run.
I got a code reader which could do live data reads and kept an eye on the fuel trims to make sure the car wasn't running lean.
Would I do it again? Probably not, but only because I get bored with cars so quickly that even driving high mileages I barely get to the break-even point before the itch to buy something else gets too strong to ignore. The system worked flawlessly and other than a slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer throttle response you wouldn't have known it was running on gas.
Don't even think about it unless
a) you do a *lot* of miles
or
b) you will be keeping the car for a long time
or
c) both
Payback time on a good conversion, and it will need to be a good one to run a high end engine properly, will be in the region of 30k miles so you need to drive a lot of miles before you actually save a penny. Two grand is optimistic for a good conversion on a big V8, closer to three grand in reality for a good system.
It's all about personal circumstances, if you don't do that many miles then think about how much fuel the cost of the conversion buys you and consider very carefully whether it's actually worth doing. Too many people get hung up on the cost of fuel and don't think about the bigger picture. LPG doesn't really add that much value at resale time either, you'll get a few hundred back on the kit but nothing like what it cost to install.
The really hard part with getting a car converted to LPG is finding someone you can trust to do the work. My lot were fine although sadly they have moved out of the area now but horror stories abound.
Ask about engine management lights, if the installer says something like "it might come on but it's nothing to worry about, they all do that" then run away. Don't walk. Run.
I got a code reader which could do live data reads and kept an eye on the fuel trims to make sure the car wasn't running lean.
Would I do it again? Probably not, but only because I get bored with cars so quickly that even driving high mileages I barely get to the break-even point before the itch to buy something else gets too strong to ignore. The system worked flawlessly and other than a slightly (and I do mean slightly) softer throttle response you wouldn't have known it was running on gas.
If you do the mileage to get the pay back I would say do it. 2k to 2.5k is ball park figure for converting a V8. If you mpg is around 20 then I worked out at about 15k miles to break even after that it is all savings in the bank. I run a XKR on gas, paid around 2k for the conversion and have no ecu light issues and the car runs just as well on gas as petrol. My advice would be to use a conversion company that have done the type of car you are considering before. Also use someone local as you will probably initially want to go back for some fine tuning.
There are pros and cons with the different gas systems, a system like Prins is very well respected and comes with a top end price tag aswell. supposed to be very reliable and have excellent injectors. On the down side you are limited to authorised distributors to access the s/w. Romano and OMVL use AEB electronics which is easily accessible. This s/w allows for petrol injection as well as gas to make up the mixture at the top end.The result being you can get away with a single vapouriser and a cheaper conversion price but will use some petrol when thrashing it. I went down the OMVL route partly because the local jag indie as fits gas and this is the system he is familiar with. Partly because the conversion price was £800 less than Prins which would have been a dual vapouriser system. I concluded that £800 bought me a reasonable amount of petrol for the times the installed system adds it. Also space under the bonnet of a XKR is an issue!
In cash equivalent terms my xkr does between 35-40mpg. the alternative would be driving an oil burner with less performance then spending money on getting it re-mapped shortly followed by a new clutch etc.
There are pros and cons with the different gas systems, a system like Prins is very well respected and comes with a top end price tag aswell. supposed to be very reliable and have excellent injectors. On the down side you are limited to authorised distributors to access the s/w. Romano and OMVL use AEB electronics which is easily accessible. This s/w allows for petrol injection as well as gas to make up the mixture at the top end.The result being you can get away with a single vapouriser and a cheaper conversion price but will use some petrol when thrashing it. I went down the OMVL route partly because the local jag indie as fits gas and this is the system he is familiar with. Partly because the conversion price was £800 less than Prins which would have been a dual vapouriser system. I concluded that £800 bought me a reasonable amount of petrol for the times the installed system adds it. Also space under the bonnet of a XKR is an issue!
In cash equivalent terms my xkr does between 35-40mpg. the alternative would be driving an oil burner with less performance then spending money on getting it re-mapped shortly followed by a new clutch etc.
The way I was rationalising it was figuring out that I spend about £50 quid a week on petrol.
That's approx 39 litres @£1.30 per ltr. So my annual fuel bill is about £2, 500 ( the cost'ish of the LPG conversion)
So i guess after a year the car is gonna cost me about half that to run for the rest of my ownership ?
Bearing in mind the original premise was running around in a great motor , ( including nods to F100's , B10's and Xjr's ) for the cost of fuelling a Mondeo / insignia (sorry owners) .
Obviously the higher the price of unleaded in the future , the quicker the break even point comes along too.
I think if I had a CL55 AMG for instance , and could run it reasonably I'd be driving around contentedly for at least 2 yrs with a stupid grin on my face ! .
Point taken though about re-sale recuperation of the outlay for the conversion , but I refer back to the original theme about the petrol head thrill of owning one of these .
When unleaded eventually hits £2 quid a litre this is surely an even a better proposition ? Which brings me to the other question about the stability / cost of LPG at the pump. Any thoughts ?
That's approx 39 litres @£1.30 per ltr. So my annual fuel bill is about £2, 500 ( the cost'ish of the LPG conversion)
So i guess after a year the car is gonna cost me about half that to run for the rest of my ownership ?
Bearing in mind the original premise was running around in a great motor , ( including nods to F100's , B10's and Xjr's ) for the cost of fuelling a Mondeo / insignia (sorry owners) .
Obviously the higher the price of unleaded in the future , the quicker the break even point comes along too.
I think if I had a CL55 AMG for instance , and could run it reasonably I'd be driving around contentedly for at least 2 yrs with a stupid grin on my face ! .
Point taken though about re-sale recuperation of the outlay for the conversion , but I refer back to the original theme about the petrol head thrill of owning one of these .
When unleaded eventually hits £2 quid a litre this is surely an even a better proposition ? Which brings me to the other question about the stability / cost of LPG at the pump. Any thoughts ?
There will be people that will say LPG prices are only going up and "I remember when it was only x p/l" what they fail to remember is that petrol was only y p/l at that time as well. If you look at historical trends( http://www.whatprice.co.uk/petrol-prices/recent-lp... with an exception that in 09 petrol and diesel dropped further after a sudden rise LPG prices have roughly tracked petrol prices at just over half the p/l. I see no reason for this to change unless there is a sudden tax change.
Before going down this route check you have convenient local filling stations at a good price. Currently in Sheffield gas is between 65.9 and 69.9p/l. Due to the tank size (unless you lose boot space) you will be visiting the forecourt more often than on petrol.
Before going down this route check you have convenient local filling stations at a good price. Currently in Sheffield gas is between 65.9 and 69.9p/l. Due to the tank size (unless you lose boot space) you will be visiting the forecourt more often than on petrol.
I have run many LPG cars (From a Leon Cupra to F150s) and recently bought a low mileage petrol Mazda6 and had it converted for my wife.
You can get cheap polish systems fitted for less than £800 but I went for BRC and paid £1500 from a recommended fitter.
V8's can be done properly for £2k.
You tend to get £500+ on resale for the LPG kit.
So in real terms, in my case, payback is after saving £1k
The Mazda is doing the same mpg on LPG as petrol and performance is unaffected.
We pay 65p/litre which means payback is when we have used 1538 litres, approx 10k miles which is about 9 months of motoring.
You can get cheap polish systems fitted for less than £800 but I went for BRC and paid £1500 from a recommended fitter.
V8's can be done properly for £2k.
You tend to get £500+ on resale for the LPG kit.
So in real terms, in my case, payback is after saving £1k
The Mazda is doing the same mpg on LPG as petrol and performance is unaffected.
We pay 65p/litre which means payback is when we have used 1538 litres, approx 10k miles which is about 9 months of motoring.
Dave Hedgehog said:
dmulally said:
There is no way I would daily drive my F100 without LPG.
Nice and cheap at the moment and fag packet maths says that I'm paying 35p per litre.
very roughly $350 at uk prices ..Nice and cheap at the moment and fag packet maths says that I'm paying 35p per litre.
king joke. That means stty old F100's like mine would need to have "comes with full tank of fuel" as the main selling feature. On my second LPG Jag. First one, X300 4.0 litre converted at 80k by the previous owner. I sold it at 325,000K, and it was still running great.... I miss that car !
Replaced by an X350 4.2, converted at 40k, I bought it at 43K ! 3 years ago for about 9K. Now on 90K, no issues.
Both times I bought the car that had already been converted, and had all of the niggles sorted. My X350 is more economical than my wife's diesel C5.....and it gets to 60 in about 6 sec's !
Replaced by an X350 4.2, converted at 40k, I bought it at 43K ! 3 years ago for about 9K. Now on 90K, no issues.
Both times I bought the car that had already been converted, and had all of the niggles sorted. My X350 is more economical than my wife's diesel C5.....and it gets to 60 in about 6 sec's !
I think I'm convinced to have a go for it. I was trawling the classifieds yesterday and it's not difficult to find something like a nice E39 M5 for about 8k . So with a £2 grand conversion that's gotta be worth some serious consideration !!
After all I think we're all on the same page here, cos we're car enthusiasts. You could probably make an excellent and logical case for just buying a 320d with that same cash - but where's the grin factor ? .
There are great 2.0 litre petrol cars out there for the same price but ho hum... it's still not the big V8 mint super smoker that cost someone else £50 grand a few years ago, that's now sat on my drive all clay bar'd and gleaming , and set me back about 10 grand. The next door neighbour just bought a 58 plate diesel Peugeot something or other for the same price.
As long as its not just gonna be a complete non- starter / nightmare /WTF have I done buying a V8 and gassing it ! , this has got to be the only realistic prospect of keeping these big V8 and V12 's out of dinosaur graveyards or motor museums ?
On my own sums and nominal mileage, I figure I could run a V8 on LPG for about £2.500 a year as opposed to £3,600 if I didn't convert it.
Plus that's optimistically assuming that unleaded doesn't hit £2 quid any time over the next year - which makes the fuel savings even larger . So back to the Internet classifieds then .
After all I think we're all on the same page here, cos we're car enthusiasts. You could probably make an excellent and logical case for just buying a 320d with that same cash - but where's the grin factor ? .
There are great 2.0 litre petrol cars out there for the same price but ho hum... it's still not the big V8 mint super smoker that cost someone else £50 grand a few years ago, that's now sat on my drive all clay bar'd and gleaming , and set me back about 10 grand. The next door neighbour just bought a 58 plate diesel Peugeot something or other for the same price.
As long as its not just gonna be a complete non- starter / nightmare /WTF have I done buying a V8 and gassing it ! , this has got to be the only realistic prospect of keeping these big V8 and V12 's out of dinosaur graveyards or motor museums ?
On my own sums and nominal mileage, I figure I could run a V8 on LPG for about £2.500 a year as opposed to £3,600 if I didn't convert it.
Plus that's optimistically assuming that unleaded doesn't hit £2 quid any time over the next year - which makes the fuel savings even larger . So back to the Internet classifieds then .
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