Deposit left on clocked car.....

[otisb]

Hello guys, hopefully you can offer me some advice on a problem im having with a private seller
I left a £200 deposit on a BMW 1 series on the weekend which had 50,000 miles and was HPI clear. Current owner bought it in April 2012.
When I logged onto the Direct.gov.uk MOT history check website, I found that the vehicle I was about to buy was actually MOT’d in Jan 2011 with 96,000 miles and again in Jan 2012 with 129,000 miles. However the current owner I was buying the car off has only recently had it MOT’d in April with 48,000 miles!!.....obviously something dodgy was going on. I called the Seller who claimed that he knew nothing about the car mileage being clocked, and that he bought the car with no MOT so he had it done in April 2012 (with the mileage showing 48k).
I told the seller im no longer interested in the vehicle but he has refused to refund my £200 deposit as according to him “i should have checked all this before I left the deposit”, and “he was ripped off by the person he bought the car off so unfortunately its my tough luck”!!
I have no idea if the seller clocked the car, or bought it clocked, but all im interested in is my deposit back.
What are my options? a.) Cut my losses and be glad i didn’t shell out the full amount? b.) report to DVLA, small claims, police etc? I only want my deposit back. Can i enforce a refund in any way?

Service history appears to have been made up too, however current seller claim he knows nothing about it, and that previous owner sold it to him like this
Thanks in advance
Otis

[CYMR0]

Be prepared to cut your losses.

Sue for return of the deposit because the car is not as described (even if a private seller). Don't hold out much hope of getting anything but a CCJ might frighten a private seller with something to lose - a dodgy limited company will be less motivated but might have some assets.

Report to TS if a trader, even if he's a trader working from home or you suspect he might be one.

Wish you'd paid the deposit on a credit card - if you did, do a chargeback.

[GreatGranny]

a and move on.

[All that jazz]

CYMR0 said:

Be prepared to cut your losses.

Sue for return of the deposit because the car is not as described (even if a private seller). Don't hold out much hope of getting anything but a CCJ might frighten a private seller with something to lose - a dodgy limited company will be less motivated but might have some assets.

Report to TS if a trader, even if he's a trader working from home or you suspect he might be one.

Wish you'd paid the deposit on a credit card - if you did, do a chargeback.

But you would have to prove he was aware it was clocked. If that can't be proved and/or the seller is telling the truth then the court will throw it out.

Police won't be interested as "it's a civil matter, sir". TS even less interested for the reasons above.

Unfortunately, harsh as it may be to hear, he is right that you should've checked all this before leaving a deposit. I'd say your chances of seeing your money back are 0.

[philmots]

I'd be prepared to cut your losses.

I'd not of left a deposit till I'd checked everything like that!

[Rubin215]

A friend was in the situation where a similar amount loaned to a "mate" was not being paid back despite the financial situation having obviously improved and repeated requests.

He eventually went round to the guy's house and doorstepped him, making it perfectly clear that if he didn't hand over the cash or some item of similar value he would inflict physical harm.

The guy's attitude was pretty much "Okay, I can take a kicking for £200."

"What" replied my mate, "Every week?"

Money was paid back in full within the hour.

[HarryW]

HPI clear, was it HPI'd by you and deposit paid on the basis of the HPI report? if so I'd investigate that avenue for a refund too. They'll also now log the car with a mileage discrepancy, so he'll never be able to shift it, pay back.

[CYMR0]

All that jazz said:

CYMR0 said:

Be prepared to cut your losses.

Sue for return of the deposit because the car is not as described (even if a private seller). Don't hold out much hope of getting anything but a CCJ might frighten a private seller with something to lose - a dodgy limited company will be less motivated but might have some assets.

Report to TS if a trader, even if he's a trader working from home or you suspect he might be one.

Wish you'd paid the deposit on a credit card - if you did, do a chargeback.

But you would have to prove he was aware it was clocked. If that can't be proved and/or the seller is telling the truth then the court will throw it out.

Police won't be interested as "it's a civil matter, sir". TS even less interested for the reasons above.

Unfortunately, harsh as it may be to hear, he is right that you should've checked all this before leaving a deposit. I'd say your chances of seeing your money back are 0.

Why would the seller's knowledge have to be proved? This is not a tort claim in misrepresentation or deceit - it is a contract claim for breach of contract, i.e., OP contracts to buy a car with 50k, seller has a car with 130k on it, and the contract is not fulfilled due to the seller's breach. OP's been a bit silly but that doesn't leave the seller with a car that he can take multiple deposits on and keep the buyer's money when they understandably walk away.

[All that jazz]

HarryW said:

HPI clear, was it HPI'd by you and deposit paid on the basis of the HPI report? if so I'd investigate that avenue for a refund too. They'll also now log the car with a mileage discrepancy, so he'll never be able to shift it, pay back.

The HPI folks have more small print than you can shake a stick at and are filled with "we accept no responsibility for" lines, one of which covers mileage inaccuracies/discrepancies/clockings.

[All that jazz]

CYMR0 said:

Why would the seller's knowledge have to be proved? This is not a tort claim in misrepresentation or deceit - it is a contract claim for breach of contract, i.e., OP contracts to buy a car with 50k, seller has a car with 130k on it, and the contract is not fulfilled due to the seller's breach. OP's been a bit silly but that doesn't leave the seller with a car that he can take multiple deposits on and keep the buyer's money when they understandably walk away.

Because the car shows 50k on the clock and current MoT cert, not 130k. The seller can just plead that he bought the car in good faith and knew nothing about it, which could well be the truth. The moral thing to do would be for the seller to return the OPs deposit regardless of whether he knew about it or not, but he's not committing any crime by choosing to keep it and blaming the OP for not checking it properly.

[0a]

It shows that the 1 series can take the miles though if the OP thought a 130k car had 50k and put down a deposit.

[CYMR0]

All that jazz said:

The seller can just plead that he bought the car in good faith and knew nothing about it, which could well be the truth.

But why does that matter? The bottom line is that the seller doesn't have a 50k car to sell, therefore he is in breach of contract.

[HarryW]

CYMR0 said:

All that jazz said:

The seller can just plead that he bought the car in good faith and knew nothing about it, which could well be the truth.

But why does that matter? The bottom line is that the seller doesn't have a 50k car to sell, therefore he is in breach of contract.

Particularly if the deposit receipt refers directly to the mileage or the advert where it is claimed to be 50k.

[All that jazz]

CYMR0 said:

But why does that matter? The bottom line is that the seller doesn't have a 50k car to sell, therefore he is in breach of contract.

What contract? Has the OP got all this in writing then, full 18 pages of legal blurb? Highly doubtful, therefore your argument is invalid.

Let's get in the real world here, not some idealistic world where we all appoint solicitors when buying secondhand cars. At best he'll have a scrap of paper with some squiggle on the bottom by the seller stating that he's taken a £200 deposit with the balance of £whatever to follow. It may have some vehicle details on it, the seller address and perhaps a date if lucky - none of which would prove anything concrete enough in a court of law.

[Greengecko]

This is a lot more simple due to the car being clocked.

Write a letter asking for your money back giving 14 days to pay. If no money is received write another one demanding the money and if it remains unpaid then legal action will be taken.

If again this is unpaid issue a money claim online, https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome

If this does go to small claims court I can't see in any circumstances that this would not be found in your favor.

Best of luck

[CYMR0]

All that jazz said:

CYMR0 said:

But why does that matter? The bottom line is that the seller doesn't have a 50k car to sell, therefore he is in breach of contract.

What contract? Has the OP got all this in writing then, full 18 pages of legal blurb? Highly doubtful, therefore your argument is invalid.

Let's get in the real world here, not some idealistic world where we all appoint solicitors when buying secondhand cars. At best he'll have a scrap of paper with some squiggle on the bottom by the seller stating that he's taken a £200 deposit with the balance of £4800 to follow. It may have some vehicle details on it, the seller address and perhaps a date if lucky - none of which would prove anything concrete enough in a court of law.

I wouldn't dream of appointing a solicitor - he's not going to recover any costs on this, but I would gladly issue proceedings. My biggest concern would be recovering the money, not getting the judgement in the first place.

A contract is not necessarily a document. If you buy a pint for £3, you have a contract to be sold a pint. An oral contract is still a contract.

The OP presumably does have an advert and the results of data checks that show the car once had a higher mileage. Unless the seller convincingly denies ever taking the OP's money, or there are no representations whatsoever as to the mileage (doubtful as the mileometer reading at the last MoT is available) then the OP is likely to be believed and succeed at Court.

He doesn't need 18 pages of leagl blurb to sue and win - he needs a contract to be in existence, which he has concluded, and which the seller has breached.

[All that jazz]

CYMR0 said:

The OP presumably does have an advert and the results of data checks that show the car once had a higher mileage. Unless the seller convincingly denies ever taking the OP's money, or there are no representations whatsoever as to the mileage (doubtful as the mileometer reading at the last MoT is available) then the OP is likely to be believed and succeed at Court.

I disagree. The only chance the OP has of seeing his money again is if he or someone else acting on his behalf pays him a visit with some encouragement from a baseball bat or similar implement.

[McSam]

I really can't see any possible argument against the OP getting his money back. It's very simple - he left a deposit for a vehicle which was described to him, and later discovered that that description was incorrect. The inaccuracy causes a substantial drop in the value of the car, so the position in which he chose to leave a deposit no longer exists..

It's not the buyer's obligation to check all these things before purchase. If the seller said it was a two-litre 2007 car and the buyer, after leaving a deposit, discovered it to be a 1600cc 2005 car, then he is fully entitled to his money back - no matter how many incorrect documents and dubious "good faith" claims the seller can produce!

That's the legal position, anyway.. as for actually getting the money back.. that all depends on the seller's situation and morality.

[blueheron]

If you do go to small claims, it may well be that just the papers arriving at the seller's place are enough for you to settle without it going as far as court.

Happened to me when a seller online took my money for a laptop and never sent it. I went to small claims. Papers arrived at his, he panicked and refunded me immediately.

[66comanche]

He should refund your deposit, that much is clear.

Hard to make him to, but there are measures you can take which will cost him far in excess of your £200, a nudge in that direction?