Can it be done better than Smolenski?
Discussion
All,
I was wondering, based upon the unsurprising news recently that Smolenski was to abandon his ideas of resurrecting TVR, whether there is still a market for refurbing TVRs?
Now, I know that many independants offer services to do various bits to refurbish existing TVRs for current owners etc, and even one or two will source a TVR and do stuff to it according to the individuals wishes.
However, the element of Smolenski's concept which may still have traction is the overall management of this.
i.e. You want a fully refurbed, as new TVR, without the headache of liaising with garages etc to get it.
You just want to pay someone to source the model of your choice, with whatever colour you wish, and deliver it to you in near-factory condition a few months later. Smolenski thought £100k was a fair deal, and clearly it wasn't as only 3 cars allegedly were produced, and he's now abandoned the idea.
So, a question. If you were on the market for an as-new TVR, with either a fully rebuilt TVR-era engine or perhaps an LS3 as Smolenski was thinking, how much would you pay if you had the money?
Within this price, consider that this is a completely stripped, refurbed, improved model with tightened quality controls & improved interior fit.
Could you put a price against each of these models? Thanks.
Chimaera
Griffith
Cerbera
Tuscan
Sagaris
I was wondering, based upon the unsurprising news recently that Smolenski was to abandon his ideas of resurrecting TVR, whether there is still a market for refurbing TVRs?
Now, I know that many independants offer services to do various bits to refurbish existing TVRs for current owners etc, and even one or two will source a TVR and do stuff to it according to the individuals wishes.
However, the element of Smolenski's concept which may still have traction is the overall management of this.
i.e. You want a fully refurbed, as new TVR, without the headache of liaising with garages etc to get it.
You just want to pay someone to source the model of your choice, with whatever colour you wish, and deliver it to you in near-factory condition a few months later. Smolenski thought £100k was a fair deal, and clearly it wasn't as only 3 cars allegedly were produced, and he's now abandoned the idea.
So, a question. If you were on the market for an as-new TVR, with either a fully rebuilt TVR-era engine or perhaps an LS3 as Smolenski was thinking, how much would you pay if you had the money?
Within this price, consider that this is a completely stripped, refurbed, improved model with tightened quality controls & improved interior fit.
Could you put a price against each of these models? Thanks.
Chimaera
Griffith
Cerbera
Tuscan
Sagaris
You can get this all done (ie end to end) by a few of the TVR specialists. They can do engine upgrades, rebuilds and swaps, paint, interiors, chassis, suspension, electrics etc....
I am sure they can pretty much do the whole lot for less than £50K incl the donor car purchase price assuming you want the full monty (clearly though a donor Sag is going to be more than a donor Chim for example).
I am sure they can pretty much do the whole lot for less than £50K incl the donor car purchase price assuming you want the full monty (clearly though a donor Sag is going to be more than a donor Chim for example).
Yes I appreciate that - what I'm highlighting though is that these guys are garages who specialise in the engineering work, and whilst they will do it for you, they are probably not optimally setup for:
Marketing
Sourcing
Logistics
Client Management
Progress Reporting
I see a niche which Smolenski was trying to exploit, but executed very badly and priced himself out of the market.
Look at this from a "new car" perspective. If you want a new Porsche, you can go online, and spec-up, order and tailor your car on the Porsche website.
If this could be seriously done with a TVR-esque site, with a portal to provide access for the buyer and garage, to post & view progress updates, then there maybe something worth looking at here, especially if a select few Indies are brought on-board with a fixed price structure for each vehicle & vehicle component area (i.e. engine, clutch & gearbox, suspension, chassis, bodywork, electrics, interior)
Marketing
Sourcing
Logistics
Client Management
Progress Reporting
I see a niche which Smolenski was trying to exploit, but executed very badly and priced himself out of the market.
Look at this from a "new car" perspective. If you want a new Porsche, you can go online, and spec-up, order and tailor your car on the Porsche website.
If this could be seriously done with a TVR-esque site, with a portal to provide access for the buyer and garage, to post & view progress updates, then there maybe something worth looking at here, especially if a select few Indies are brought on-board with a fixed price structure for each vehicle & vehicle component area (i.e. engine, clutch & gearbox, suspension, chassis, bodywork, electrics, interior)
There's quite a few Tvr specialists that could do this for you
I'm guessing the numbers (for an LS engined chim anyway) would be something like this ;
Donor chim £7k
Ls crate engine £8k (?)
New chassis £4k
Repainted / filled body £4k
New roof/targa £1000
Retrimmed interior £1000
Wheels/tyres & gen mech refurb £2000
Suspension £1500
So realistically, you're looking at around £30k
I think the original question should be 'is it possible to make more of a mess of TVR than that Russian tosser has, and would you like to stuff his wind turbines where the sun doesn't shine' ??? Haha
I'm guessing the numbers (for an LS engined chim anyway) would be something like this ;
Donor chim £7k
Ls crate engine £8k (?)
New chassis £4k
Repainted / filled body £4k
New roof/targa £1000
Retrimmed interior £1000
Wheels/tyres & gen mech refurb £2000
Suspension £1500
So realistically, you're looking at around £30k
I think the original question should be 'is it possible to make more of a mess of TVR than that Russian tosser has, and would you like to stuff his wind turbines where the sun doesn't shine' ??? Haha
Thanks Graeme.
Add a few thousand for gearbox & clutch if you're putting in a new LS engine.
But nevertheless, this proves my point.
Say the total if you managed it yourself with indies was £30k and that got you a fully re-furbed as-new Chimaera better than the day it came of the production line. Would someone who was new to TVR, but had always wanted one, therefore pay, say £35k for one if they didn't have to go through the hassle of managing it themselves?
Add a few thousand for gearbox & clutch if you're putting in a new LS engine.
But nevertheless, this proves my point.
Say the total if you managed it yourself with indies was £30k and that got you a fully re-furbed as-new Chimaera better than the day it came of the production line. Would someone who was new to TVR, but had always wanted one, therefore pay, say £35k for one if they didn't have to go through the hassle of managing it themselves?
Oh bugger, yeah missed transmission
And wiring too
Anyway, we're still looking at £35k ish. If you went to someone like racing green or TVR power, I'm sure they'd manage the whole thing for you for probably total £40k ish
For that you'd get effectively a brand new car in exactly the colour and spec you want
Makes the £99k list seem a little steep
It makes a tempting proposition though as an LS engined chim would be a reliable 350-400bhp 1000kg car. There's not much on the market new at that sort of price point that does what this car would do and with the character
And wiring too
Anyway, we're still looking at £35k ish. If you went to someone like racing green or TVR power, I'm sure they'd manage the whole thing for you for probably total £40k ish
For that you'd get effectively a brand new car in exactly the colour and spec you want
Makes the £99k list seem a little steep
It makes a tempting proposition though as an LS engined chim would be a reliable 350-400bhp 1000kg car. There's not much on the market new at that sort of price point that does what this car would do and with the character
I dont believe there is demand for a middleman ie someone without a garage etc to simply project manage this for a 10 to 15% mark up OR to source cars, get this done and punt them out for donor plus £30K plus mark up.
IF there was a market then either it would have worked for TVR / Power or other established players would have stepped in. IMHO
The 'brand new' Cerbera with almost 0 miles on the clock only sold for £20ishK - even adding on the cost of the inevitable engine work its 'only' going to have cost £30K all in. Teh car was for sale for 2 years and there wasnt a queue round the block (there was oil pissing from the block ;-) )
IF there was a market then either it would have worked for TVR / Power or other established players would have stepped in. IMHO
The 'brand new' Cerbera with almost 0 miles on the clock only sold for £20ishK - even adding on the cost of the inevitable engine work its 'only' going to have cost £30K all in. Teh car was for sale for 2 years and there wasnt a queue round the block (there was oil pissing from the block ;-) )
You may be right - if we're just talking about existing TVR owners. I just wonder if marketed correctly whether the wider 2-seater sports car market would be an option?
I mean if you want to buy a Nissan 370Z or similar nowadays, it's going to cost £35k+ once you've added stuff onto the basic car. A Boxster S (315hp) will set you back £45k, yet a refurbed Griff or Chimaera would be cheaper, looks better, is better performing (with the right engine), sounds better, British, and you won't look like a hairdresser into the bargain.
Thinking about this, perhaps the way to test the market would be to see the level of interest by a mailshot asking people to rate the looks of the Chimaera & Griffith over their current competitors....
I don't think selling refurbed TVRs to hardcore TVR enthusiasts is what it is about. It's about taking market share from other marques, for people who'd rather buy british, but at the moment the only british options are really supercars with the associated price-tag.
One other item to investigate is the possibility of warranty. Or at least an insurance policy to cover warranty items.
Food for thought.
I mean if you want to buy a Nissan 370Z or similar nowadays, it's going to cost £35k+ once you've added stuff onto the basic car. A Boxster S (315hp) will set you back £45k, yet a refurbed Griff or Chimaera would be cheaper, looks better, is better performing (with the right engine), sounds better, British, and you won't look like a hairdresser into the bargain.
Thinking about this, perhaps the way to test the market would be to see the level of interest by a mailshot asking people to rate the looks of the Chimaera & Griffith over their current competitors....
I don't think selling refurbed TVRs to hardcore TVR enthusiasts is what it is about. It's about taking market share from other marques, for people who'd rather buy british, but at the moment the only british options are really supercars with the associated price-tag.
One other item to investigate is the possibility of warranty. Or at least an insurance policy to cover warranty items.
Food for thought.
domV8 said:
The only fly in the ointment might be the lack of any sort of safety equipment...
Not a problem for us TVR converts - but for the average Joe looking at 370Z's or Boxters, it probably would have an impact on the viability of the car as an alternative option...
This always confused me - A drivers airbag, ABS and Traction control are actually pretty easy and not prohibitively expensive to be fitted (the same airbag system as morgans + other low volume manufacturers is available to the public...if you understand the technical aspects)Not a problem for us TVR converts - but for the average Joe looking at 370Z's or Boxters, it probably would have an impact on the viability of the car as an alternative option...
It would not have been a stretch to offer those items as options and take some of those sales off Porsche. Big case of bravado, machismo, stupidity and short-sightedness on PW's part in my eyes.
I think the only viable option would be a business model like Singer Porsche's.
Re-imagined versions with the shortcomings of the original cars rectified, such as the handling, build quality, HVAC and drive-train reliability properly sorted, but crucially still based on original TVR parts. Fitment of proper side impact and roll over protection would also be a very valuable modification in this day and age.
These days it’s fair to say the Speed Six reliability is no longer an issue, and I’m sure the AJP8 could be brought up to similar standards. The RV8 cars should perhaps have the option of AJP8 fitment, but all engines should have modern ECU’s with proper TC. ABS sadly is far too expensive to develop and tune, so properly balanced brakes would be the best we could hope for.
The only problem with this business plan is that it won’t have legs for another 10-15 years once TVR’s become true classics, the mystique around them returns, and the bad press of the last 10 years has been forgotten.
ETA: And most of the cars will be 25+ years old by then so you'll be able to flog them in the US without restrictions.
Re-imagined versions with the shortcomings of the original cars rectified, such as the handling, build quality, HVAC and drive-train reliability properly sorted, but crucially still based on original TVR parts. Fitment of proper side impact and roll over protection would also be a very valuable modification in this day and age.
These days it’s fair to say the Speed Six reliability is no longer an issue, and I’m sure the AJP8 could be brought up to similar standards. The RV8 cars should perhaps have the option of AJP8 fitment, but all engines should have modern ECU’s with proper TC. ABS sadly is far too expensive to develop and tune, so properly balanced brakes would be the best we could hope for.
The only problem with this business plan is that it won’t have legs for another 10-15 years once TVR’s become true classics, the mystique around them returns, and the bad press of the last 10 years has been forgotten.
ETA: And most of the cars will be 25+ years old by then so you'll be able to flog them in the US without restrictions.
Edited by dvs_dave on Thursday 19th July 19:01
Agree with above post from dvs_dave. Personally, I hope to be ready for that market in 10 years time or so with engineering & facilities at the Singer/Eagle level.
However, it were new TVRs that were proposed @ £99,600 - the most comprehensive rebuild/re-engineering on offer on the TVR website was £36,000 IIRC, which is pretty much in line with the calculations above.
However, it were new TVRs that were proposed @ £99,600 - the most comprehensive rebuild/re-engineering on offer on the TVR website was £36,000 IIRC, which is pretty much in line with the calculations above.
Edited by 900T-R on Thursday 19th July 18:58
mickydoo said:
I think you'll find they weren't new TVRs built from scratch, but re-furnished ones, albeit with new engine drivetrain and electrics, interior etc. they still sourced an old car before gutting the parts they didn't want.
They did for the 'prototypes' - but the cars proposed at £99.6K were new TVRs. The refurbishment options ran in four stages from £12K for a simple engine swap to £36K for a comprehensive rebuild. Even if you started with a Sagaris, there's a bit of a gap between £36K and £99.6...
crosseyedlion said:
dvs_dave said:
ABS sadly is far too expensive to develop and tune, so properly balanced brakes would be the best we could hope for.
Bosch sell mappable aftermarket ABS units for motorsport applications to the public for around 5k, it'd just need the time put in to tune it.Simple answer is YES is could have been done better than moleskins.
In fact i had a discussion with smolenski about just how the company can be rescued and brought back.
For very little money (and i do mean a small sum in the grand scheme of things) he could have had at least one model (sagaris) with outsourced production, with production quality superior to the tvr factory produced at the time. The cost would have been vastly reduced on production cost (so hense cheaper car) and cars could have be supplied with LS series engine. Total cost would been approx £40-£50K (on sale price) a car dependant on final costs.
There was already a network for the cars and i also had another large network overseas that would have loved to have had the car.
All that he needed to provide was the moulds and tooling etc (which supposedly he has, although i am unsure what he really has/had).
But sadly the arrogant idiot thought he knew better, and as shown, he did/does not.
Such a sad shame.
In fact i had a discussion with smolenski about just how the company can be rescued and brought back.
For very little money (and i do mean a small sum in the grand scheme of things) he could have had at least one model (sagaris) with outsourced production, with production quality superior to the tvr factory produced at the time. The cost would have been vastly reduced on production cost (so hense cheaper car) and cars could have be supplied with LS series engine. Total cost would been approx £40-£50K (on sale price) a car dependant on final costs.
There was already a network for the cars and i also had another large network overseas that would have loved to have had the car.
All that he needed to provide was the moulds and tooling etc (which supposedly he has, although i am unsure what he really has/had).
But sadly the arrogant idiot thought he knew better, and as shown, he did/does not.
Such a sad shame.
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