Changing Pagid brake pads (street - track)? Good idea?
Discussion
I have a Z4M roadster equipped with a full AP racing kit for occasional trackdays and trips to the Nurburgring. For now I have Pagid RS 4-2 (blue) on them as a kind of dual purpose pad for track and street. On track they work ok (really hard intensive track work is a little too much for them), but the blue ones make a lot of noise on the street. I'm getting really annoyed by it and tried everything to make them quiet! Is it ok to fit the Pagid RS14 (black) for trackdays and change back to the street friendly Pagid RS4-2-1 (also black) for normal and quiet street driving?
These brake pads are both from Pagid; but is mixing the two different compounds on the AP rotors not a problem and make the brakes preform less then sticking to one compound? The Pagid RS-14 are ceramic based and the Pagid RS4-2-1 are carbon based. Is it ok to mix those two compounds when you change brake pads for street and track? Or would it be better to use RS 4-2-1 (black) for street and change them for RS 4-4 (orange) for trackdays, because they are both carbon based?
These brake pads are both from Pagid; but is mixing the two different compounds on the AP rotors not a problem and make the brakes preform less then sticking to one compound? The Pagid RS-14 are ceramic based and the Pagid RS4-2-1 are carbon based. Is it ok to mix those two compounds when you change brake pads for street and track? Or would it be better to use RS 4-2-1 (black) for street and change them for RS 4-4 (orange) for trackdays, because they are both carbon based?
bulldog5046 said:
I'm not an expert but i would of thought this is a bad idea because of the way pads and disc's mate together. You may end up with glazed pads, possibly?
I have RS29's on my track car which is road legal and i dont notice much squeeling, but i dont drive it everyday....
Can't you get glazing away when you do the bedding in procedure again?I have RS29's on my track car which is road legal and i dont notice much squeeling, but i dont drive it everyday....
RS29 is not road legal (like most Pagid pads)... About the squealing, when you drive them a lot on the street they start squealing (problem with almost every race pad)
An expert will be along shortly, but this an interesting read on brake pads:
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Centric%20White%...
I run RS29s on Porsche 968 brakes on track and the street. They don't squeal.
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Centric%20White%...
I run RS29s on Porsche 968 brakes on track and the street. They don't squeal.
nsa said:
An expert will be along shortly, but this an interesting read on brake pads:
http://www.centricparts.com/files/Centric%20White%...
I run RS29s on Porsche 968 brakes on track and the street. They don't squeal.
Nothing in that PDF that I did not know and it is the basics about brake pads. http://www.centricparts.com/files/Centric%20White%...
I run RS29s on Porsche 968 brakes on track and the street. They don't squeal.
If they are silent with you, then you are lucky if.
Here a document from the same manufacturer (Stoptech)
Stoptech website said:
FAQ #4: What precautions must be taken when switching from street pads to track pads?
If you are changing pad compounds, such switching from street pads to track pads, you need to remove all of the material on the rotor and replace it with a fresh transfer layer of material from the new pads. To be honest, rotors do not like to have different compounds used on them, and virtually all rotor and pad manufacturers recommend that you do not swap pad compounds on the same rotors. The reality is, however, that most customers don't have two complete sets of rotors, so here are our recommendation for managing compounds between track and street use. Note that diligent bedding-in is the key.
When switching from street pads to track pads, one needs to make sure that as much of the street compound is removed from the rotor as possible before aggressive track use. The risk here is that any street pad material remaining on the rotor will be subject to deterioration from overheating. This can ultimately cause severe vibrations due to uneven pad deposits (a smearing of the street pad material on the rotor face).
A common method for removing street pad material is to install the track pad prior to driving to the event. Because most track pads operate in an abrasive mode during regular street operation, driving them to the track will wear off any existing brake pad material en route. You will know when the street pad material is gone by the squealing noises coming from your brakes after a short while…
FAQ #5: What precautions must be taken when switching from track pads to street pads?
Many people make the mistake of thinking that because they have a used set of pads in the past that the system does not need re-bedding when they are re-installed. Remember, the same material must be adhered to the rotor as the pad running against it for effective braking. Race pad material must be removed prior to street use.
Since you're not as likely to overheat the rotors on the street after a track event, over time the street pads will remove and replace the track pad material on the rotors naturally. However, the best solution where street pads are being put back into service after a track day is to follow the original bed-in procedure for the street pads after the swap.
FAQ #6: Do I need to bed-in new pads if I do not change pad compounds?
Although you do not typically need to establish a fresh transfer layer for a new set of pads if they are of the same compound as the previous set of pads, there is still a need to mechanically seat the pad face to the rotor face. Because the pad and rotor wear together as a matched set, by the end of a pad's useful life the rotor face is usually not completely flat. Consequently, when installing new pads on a used rotor, there is a small window of time in which the new pads will rapidly wear down against the peaks and valleys of the existing rotor face. This process of re-establishing the wear interface is often referred to as burnishing.
At the same time, new pads may need to be heated and cooled a few times before hard use in order to burn off all of the residual manufacturing resins and excess binding agents present in the pad compound. This process ensures that the exaggerated fade present in new pads (the “green” fade) is not experienced at speed when they are needed most. Unfortunately, this process of heating and cooling the pads is commonly referred to as bedding-in even though it has nothing to do with establishing a transfer layer. Gassing-out is a more appropriate term for this process.
So, while establishing a transfer layer is not necessary with new pads of the same compound, performing a bed-in procedure will serve to establish the wear interface as well as to expose the pads to their green fade in a controlled environment. For this reason, we recommend performing a formal bed-in any time rotors, pads, or both are changed, regardless of pad compound or rotor manufacturer.
If you are changing pad compounds, such switching from street pads to track pads, you need to remove all of the material on the rotor and replace it with a fresh transfer layer of material from the new pads. To be honest, rotors do not like to have different compounds used on them, and virtually all rotor and pad manufacturers recommend that you do not swap pad compounds on the same rotors. The reality is, however, that most customers don't have two complete sets of rotors, so here are our recommendation for managing compounds between track and street use. Note that diligent bedding-in is the key.
When switching from street pads to track pads, one needs to make sure that as much of the street compound is removed from the rotor as possible before aggressive track use. The risk here is that any street pad material remaining on the rotor will be subject to deterioration from overheating. This can ultimately cause severe vibrations due to uneven pad deposits (a smearing of the street pad material on the rotor face).
A common method for removing street pad material is to install the track pad prior to driving to the event. Because most track pads operate in an abrasive mode during regular street operation, driving them to the track will wear off any existing brake pad material en route. You will know when the street pad material is gone by the squealing noises coming from your brakes after a short while…
FAQ #5: What precautions must be taken when switching from track pads to street pads?
Many people make the mistake of thinking that because they have a used set of pads in the past that the system does not need re-bedding when they are re-installed. Remember, the same material must be adhered to the rotor as the pad running against it for effective braking. Race pad material must be removed prior to street use.
Since you're not as likely to overheat the rotors on the street after a track event, over time the street pads will remove and replace the track pad material on the rotors naturally. However, the best solution where street pads are being put back into service after a track day is to follow the original bed-in procedure for the street pads after the swap.
FAQ #6: Do I need to bed-in new pads if I do not change pad compounds?
Although you do not typically need to establish a fresh transfer layer for a new set of pads if they are of the same compound as the previous set of pads, there is still a need to mechanically seat the pad face to the rotor face. Because the pad and rotor wear together as a matched set, by the end of a pad's useful life the rotor face is usually not completely flat. Consequently, when installing new pads on a used rotor, there is a small window of time in which the new pads will rapidly wear down against the peaks and valleys of the existing rotor face. This process of re-establishing the wear interface is often referred to as burnishing.
At the same time, new pads may need to be heated and cooled a few times before hard use in order to burn off all of the residual manufacturing resins and excess binding agents present in the pad compound. This process ensures that the exaggerated fade present in new pads (the “green” fade) is not experienced at speed when they are needed most. Unfortunately, this process of heating and cooling the pads is commonly referred to as bedding-in even though it has nothing to do with establishing a transfer layer. Gassing-out is a more appropriate term for this process.
So, while establishing a transfer layer is not necessary with new pads of the same compound, performing a bed-in procedure will serve to establish the wear interface as well as to expose the pads to their green fade in a controlled environment. For this reason, we recommend performing a formal bed-in any time rotors, pads, or both are changed, regardless of pad compound or rotor manufacturer.
Edited by Franzino on Wednesday 25th July 17:59
Edited by Franzino on Wednesday 25th July 18:01
I got some RS4-2 pads for my Esprit, they are very good pads but I found that for a while they squeeled which can make driving a bit tiresome. I am currently at Nice on my Euro trip and they have eased up on the noise so maybe they have settled down a bit. All performance characteristics are very good though cold bite stopping and fade etc are excellent...
I run RS29 on the road, an excellent road pad. They only squeal for me if they haven't been used properly for a while.
For track I use Carbone Lorraine RC6 and have no problems interchanging them, however the RC6 will generally scrape anything off a brake disc, leaving a clean surface as if they have been on a lathe. This means the Pagids to go back on fine. Most pads don't do this and leave some kind of pad transfer so there could be some judder for a while before they bed in?
For track I use Carbone Lorraine RC6 and have no problems interchanging them, however the RC6 will generally scrape anything off a brake disc, leaving a clean surface as if they have been on a lathe. This means the Pagids to go back on fine. Most pads don't do this and leave some kind of pad transfer so there could be some judder for a while before they bed in?
Edited by c_w on Monday 30th July 15:31
c_w said:
I run RS29 on the road, an excellent road pad. They only squeal for me if they haven't been used properly for a while.
For track I use Carbone Lorraine RC6 and have no problems interchanging them, however the RC6 will generally scrape anything off a brake disc, leaving a clean surface as if they have been on a lathe. This means the Pagids to go back on fine. Most pads don't do this and leave some kind of pad transfer so there could be some judder for a while before they bed in?
Curious. You feel that RS29 are not good enough for track work?! For track I use Carbone Lorraine RC6 and have no problems interchanging them, however the RC6 will generally scrape anything off a brake disc, leaving a clean surface as if they have been on a lathe. This means the Pagids to go back on fine. Most pads don't do this and leave some kind of pad transfer so there could be some judder for a while before they bed in?
Try some CL RC6 and you will understand why 
Don't get me wrong the RS29 is a fantastic pad, almost perfect in it's ability to work from cold and hot, fairly quiet and fairly low dust plus lasting ages. Sometimes if the weather forecast isn't great I will leave them on (as the RC6 have aggressive pad deposit which is a pain to remove if the wheels get wet), but the power of the RC6 is a another level and as I run standard discs and calipers on a BMW M Coupe the high biting RC6 give them something akin to a BBK.
Don't get me wrong the RS29 is a fantastic pad, almost perfect in it's ability to work from cold and hot, fairly quiet and fairly low dust plus lasting ages. Sometimes if the weather forecast isn't great I will leave them on (as the RC6 have aggressive pad deposit which is a pain to remove if the wheels get wet), but the power of the RC6 is a another level and as I run standard discs and calipers on a BMW M Coupe the high biting RC6 give them something akin to a BBK.
I put in a new set of Pagid RS29s before my last track day. I bedded them in and they worked great, but when the track dried after a rain shower, the wheels vibrated horribly. I'm pretty sure the discs are OK, but do I need to put some street pads on to scrape off the bedded in material and start again, or just drive through it?
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