MSA road rally tyre regs

[benjj]

Hello chaps,

I've just bought an early Porsche 944 that I'm hoping to enter in a few local road rallies/tests.

I have a bit of a problem with tyres.

The car as standard came with 205/55/15 front and 215/60/15 rear. The wheels are a 7J I think.

The Blue Book indicates that I am not allowed to run less than a 70 profile as standard. That much I get. However I'm a bit stumped as to what I can do with my current rims.

I can't go down to a 14'' as they won't clear the brakes.

I've used a calculator and changing the 215/60/15 to a 195/70/15 works out at a (just acceptable) 2.3% change in rolling radius. However, on the 205/55/15 this changes to a 7.5% change which is not good.

Any ideas? I really don't want to stump up for new wheels, especially as it has got the original Porsche cookie-cutters on which I really like.

Any suggestions would be very welcome.

Cheers,

Ben

[velocemitch]

Ben, short of ditching historics and playing with the moderns at night or on the new Targa format (details still sketchy but expected to start next year), I can't see a way out. I don't expect there is much clearance within the arches to go larger in overall diameter.

Do the 944's have six pot motors?, not sure on the spec of those??

[heebeegeetee]

Historics have to use 70 profile tyres but isn't your car too young to be a historic? And isn't there a 2 litre engine limit on moderns (or is it less than that?)

[benjj]

Hello chaps,

The car is a very early 82 so qualifies for a few things. It is a 2497cc 4 pot so doesn't fall foul of 6 cylinders.

I've just found out there was a 185/70/15 OEM option, looks like the way to go.

[velocemitch]

heebeegeetee said:

Historics have to use 70 profile tyres but isn't your car too young to be a historic? And isn't there a 2 litre engine limit on moderns (or is it less than that?)

It's not a limit on capacity it's a limit on 4 cylinders with limited overboring now too, which for the most part means the same, about 2.5.

Bens 944 would comply though, you should give it a shot Ben, much more exciting than regularity rallying

[heebeegeetee]

velocemitch said:

It's not a limit on capacity it's a limit on 4 cylinders with limited overboring now too, which for the most part means the same, about 2.5.

Bens 944 would comply though, you should give it a shot Ben, much more exciting than regularity rallying

Ah, didn't realise that.

Yes Ben, you should definitely give that a shot. Yumps and blind brows will be hard work in the Porker, but your choice of utter driving godness that is rwd will shine like a beacon in the night.

I'm sure it's only historics that have to run 70 profile though. 944s are still in banger territory aren't they, not classic or historic?

[benjj]

Not sure really, it meets the regs for most of the local stuff. I'm also doing the HERO Throckmorton Challenge in it which is an MSA event.

It is, to all intents and purposes, a 'classic' and it meets the criteria of most UK classic rallies. It isn't though really For anything on the continent with FIA rulings I can also use the OEM low profile tyres.

[heebeegeetee]

benjj said:

Not sure really, it meets the regs for most of the local stuff. I'm also doing the HERO Throckmorton Challenge in it which is an MSA event.

It is, to all intents and purposes, a 'classic' and it meets the criteria of most UK classic rallies. It isn't though really For anything on the continent with FIA rulings I can also use the OEM low profile tyres.

You mean I am now so old that cars that were new when I was well into adulthood are now regarded as classics?

[benjj]

In a way, yes!

Its hard to believe the car has just turned 30 years old, really nice engineering for that time.

In reality I wouldn't actually call it a classic in the traditional terms.

The reason I bought it is there are two crews who left us for dead in the tests on the Malts - a 911SC and a Lotus Elan. The 944 is shifting things back in our favour a bit but I want an overall win next, not just a class win.

Edited by benjj on Thursday 26th July 18:26

[andy97]

benjj said:

Hello chaps,

I've just bought an early Porsche 944 that I'm hoping to enter in a few local road rallies/tests.

Ben

Ben, as a 944 fan and former owner of two, I'm interested to know more about the sort of events you are entering, and more about the car. Can you tell us more please about the type of events, the organisers, the spec of the car etc please.

[GC8]

benjj said:

Hello chaps,

The car is a very early 82 so qualifies for a few things. It is a 2497cc 4 pot so doesn't fall foul of 6 cylinders.

I've just found out there was a 185/70/15 OEM option, looks like the way to go.

Not actually an option Ben - the first cars came on 185/70/15 tyres, which was changed to 215/60/15 later on.

[robg2]

Not old enough to run as historic in an MSA event unfortunately - has to be no younger than 1981 (so a 924 could qualify, but not a 944 or 924s). But you could do a conventional road rally in it - for which tyres and rim size are free nowadays.
'Conventional' road rallies means either night events or the Targa format daylight events that might well start appearing next year. The big limitation for both with a 944 would be ground clearance.

There are a few events that run under a FIVA permit instead of MSA (eg LeJog), but typically you'll have to re-mortgage to afford the entry fee.

[GC8]

944s were built during 1981.

[andy97]

GC8 said:

944s were built during 1981.

Wiki says 1982

[GC8]

It also said that I climbed Mount Everest, but I havent.

The first cars were built for the 1982 model year, but that doesnt mean that they were built in 1982. The car was launched in September 1981, on 185/70/15 tyres.

[benjj]

Thanks all.

The price of 185/70/15s is absolutely shocking.

As the other fitment was 215/60/15 I am just going to slam on a set of 195/70/15 Falken .Eurowinters. They're only 2.3% out on rolling radius (acceptable) and less than £50 a corner.

[robg2]

I wouldn't expect too much from the Falken Eurowinters unfortunately. Despite what Kwikfit will tell you, winters really are designed for snow and ice.

Based on the arguments above, in an '82 944 you're limited to night road rallies (or the yet-to-exist daylight Targa rallies), and often people use part-worn knobblies for this so it's worth checking what you could get your hands on via eBay etc. Bear in mind the following though:
- The rolling circumference of forest tyres is larger than the standard road tyre of the same size. That might give some clearance issues if you can't find a suitably low profile.
- Road rallying is fairly quickly moving towards allowing only e marked tyres, which lots (but not all) forest tyres aren't.
Despite both these problems, it's worth running on forest tyres on road events not just because of the grip level but also because they've got reinforced sidewalls. Low-profile standard tyres are easy to damage on pot-holes etc...

Generally, the favourite tyres for road rallying are:

used forest tyres, as above
Yoko A021-R (a few sizes, probably including 15")
Avon Turbosport (think that's what they're called - probably 13" only and £££)

There are frequently debates on things like the British Rally forum about the current flavour of the month.

[velocemitch]

I would assume Ben's 944 was built in 81 but registered in 82, so qualifies as Historic?. That's within the rules, but you do have to prove it at scrutineering, a V5 showing 82 and a nod and a wink wouldn't get you past that one I don't think.

Your right about the overall diameter of Forest tyres though, we struggle with the Clio 172 to get a decent Tyre under the arches and over the calipers. Currently using Khumo Ecsta v70A as they grip like s**t to a blanket on tar, and have strong side walls.... no grip at all on the whites though , I'd look at those if the 944 was to be used in the lanes at night. Doesn't sound like Ben's up for that though.

The e-marked debacle will affect Historics too, it's not one of the most popular rule changes....

[benjj]

I have done my homework you know

Build date confirmed with Porsche DE as 28th November 1981, registered date in the UK of 1st October 1982.

Will have a look into the night rallies, sounds interesting.

[GC8]

Ben, that has to be one of the very first right hand drive cars, presuming that it is RHD?