F10 M5......good but shame...
Discussion
Travelling back from work today....had the pleasure of seeing an F10 M5 overtaking a couple of cars on the opposite side of the road.......
Lovely blue colour and looked like it was shifting very nicely....so thumbs up so far....
Being the nice day it was, my window was down so was looking forward to hearing the brilliantness that is M as it went past....:-( disappointment indeed.....and got me thinking once again how good that epic V10 was....
Please please BMW....find a way to make it sound epic again...
Lovely blue colour and looked like it was shifting very nicely....so thumbs up so far....
Being the nice day it was, my window was down so was looking forward to hearing the brilliantness that is M as it went past....:-( disappointment indeed.....and got me thinking once again how good that epic V10 was....
Please please BMW....find a way to make it sound epic again...
Thing is I see a lot of e60 m5s but only very rarely do they sound good as they are rarely being wrung out. Let's be honest when mooching around town they sound more like a tractor. My e39 is stock and so discrete you'd barely know its an m engine in normal driving. Not sure they've ever sounded great or distinct at daily speeds, unlike a Maserati, pork or its ilk.
it is indeed not a great sounding engine, but i still think from the exterior it is a pretty good sounding car.
come on, the V10 was always going to be a hard act to follow from a noise point of view. that said, do you remember what people on here were saying when the E60 came out....now its (rightly so) known as a great car, despite its issues.
the new one is better in EVERY measurable way; i even think it looks better. but the appeal of that glorious, glorious S85B50 V10 engine is huge. imagine that, with either a 6 speed manual or one of the new 7 speed DCT boxes.
come on, the V10 was always going to be a hard act to follow from a noise point of view. that said, do you remember what people on here were saying when the E60 came out....now its (rightly so) known as a great car, despite its issues.
the new one is better in EVERY measurable way; i even think it looks better. but the appeal of that glorious, glorious S85B50 V10 engine is huge. imagine that, with either a 6 speed manual or one of the new 7 speed DCT boxes.
E38Ross said:
... but the appeal of that glorious, glorious S85B50 V10 engine is huge. imagine that, with either a 6 speed manual or one of the new 7 speed DCT boxes.
It is utterly rubbish when coupled to a 6spd box in the US version of the E60 M5. I have actually driven one and the SMG is miles better. The 7spd DCT is another story but they only made one - the E60 M5 CSL so I guess we will never know...
Cheburator mk2 said:
E38Ross said:
... but the appeal of that glorious, glorious S85B50 V10 engine is huge. imagine that, with either a 6 speed manual or one of the new 7 speed DCT boxes.
It is utterly rubbish when coupled to a 6spd box in the US version of the E60 M5. I have actually driven one and the SMG is miles better. The 7spd DCT is another story but they only made one - the E60 M5 CSL so I guess we will never know...
cheers
E38Ross said:
the new one is better in EVERY measurable way; i even think it looks better.
I don't think so.The new one is not (currently) available as a Touring, so for me it has zero appeal. And I don't even have a dog. It's something I can't explain, but I like estates. If I were to buy an Audi RS6, then maybe I'd get a saloon......
E38Ross said:
how is it rubbish with a 6 speed manual? i'm intrigued to know; having driven an E92 M3 with a manual box that engine was a peach; be it driven hard or just pootling; i can't see how the V10 wouldn't be at least as good!??
cheers
Simple answer - the M3 engine makes max power at 8300rpm and max torque at 4000rpm, which allows for a nice spread in the gearing. The V10 makes max power at 7750rpm and max torque at 6100rpm, which DOES NOT allow for any spacing in the gearing if you want to keep the engine in the narrow power/torque band for that relentless acceleration that the M5/M6 is famous for. Add to this the 2t of weight vs the 1.75t of the M3 and et voilla! - the M3 feels good with the 6spd, while the M5 feels sluggish compared to the maximum attack feeling that the 7spd SMG gives you. cheers
The gearbox itself is very good - most E39 M5 have knackered plastic bushes in the linkage, which are worth about £10 from BMW, but the box has to come down in order to replace them, thus people go on about balky and heavy gearchange... In reality, on a fresh set of bushings or with a Schnitzer/Hamman/Dinann/Turner short shift, the box is a delight to shift.
berry100 said:
Would agree on tickover.....e60 used to sound almost diesel like but this F10 had its chance to impress as it was obviously stretching its legs during its overtaking passé.....
I've been behind a few F10 M5s, E60 M5s when I'm on my motorbike in London and sadly the F10 just sounds like a generic, fairly muffled V8, despite it being an exceptional engine. The V10, particularly in the M6 for some reason, always sounds more interesting and that funny wail it gives out is very distinctive. Mayeb BMW thinks M5 drivers want to be discreet?Cheburator mk2 said:
Simple answer - the M3 engine makes max power at 8300rpm and max torque at 4000rpm, which allows for a nice spread in the gearing. The V10 makes max power at 7750rpm and max torque at 6100rpm, which DOES NOT allow for any spacing in the gearing if you want to keep the engine in the narrow power/torque band for that relentless acceleration that the M5/M6 is famous for. Add to this the 2t of weight vs the 1.75t of the M3 and et voilla! - the M3 feels good with the 6spd, while the M5 feels sluggish compared to the maximum attack feeling that the 7spd SMG gives you.
The gearbox itself is very good - most E39 M5 have knackered plastic bushes in the linkage, which are worth about £10 from BMW, but the box has to come down in order to replace them, thus people go on about balky and heavy gearchange... In reality, on a fresh set of bushings or with a Schnitzer/Hamman/Dinann/Turner short shift, the box is a delight to shift.
The E60 M5 weighs about 1850kgs and the M3 about 1650kgs, but the way you described the engines suggests that the M3 had more low down torque, which isn't the case. The V10 is always making more power than the V8. I find it daft to think it NEEDS 7 gears when far less powerful 5 series cope with 6. The gearbox itself is very good - most E39 M5 have knackered plastic bushes in the linkage, which are worth about £10 from BMW, but the box has to come down in order to replace them, thus people go on about balky and heavy gearchange... In reality, on a fresh set of bushings or with a Schnitzer/Hamman/Dinann/Turner short shift, the box is a delight to shift.
Is it me or do people drive these engines at the same rpm as other petrol or even diesel engines and wonder where the grunt is? I drove the E92 M3 again Sunday and from 50mph in 5th (a gear which tops out at about 165mph) and it pulled fine. It was doing approx 2.5k rpm at that, whereas another car might be doing just 2k. Also, let's not forget the C63 AMG engine produces peak torque higher up its rev range than the M3
Edited by E38Ross on Thursday 26th July 09:08
berry100 said:
my window was down so was looking forward to hearing the brilliantness that is M as it went past....:-( disappointment indeed.....and got me thinking once again how good that epic V10 was....
Please please BMW....find a way to make it sound epic again...
From what I understand if you had actually been in the car you would have heard an 'engine' noise Please please BMW....find a way to make it sound epic again...
E38Ross said:
The E60 M5 weighs about 1850kgs and the M3 about 1650kgs, but the way you described the engines suggests that the M3 had more low down torque, which isn't the case. The V10 is always making more power than the V8. I find it daft to think it NEEDS 7 gears when far less powerful 5 series cope with 6.
Is it me or do people drive these engines at the same rpm as other petrol or even diesel engines and wonder where the grunt is? I drove the E92 M3 again Sunday and from 50mph in 5th (a gear which tops out at about 165mph) and it pulled fine. It was doing approx 2.5k rpm at that, whereas another car might be doing just 2k. Also, let's not forget the C63 AMG engine produces peak torque higher up its rev range than the M3
Read my post again, think about the spread of peak power/torque of the two different engines and then think again. As with regards to the published weight - they are so far off the mark in reality once you add the optional extras, it is not even worth arguing about it. Just to give you an idea - my E61 M5 is meant to be 1955kg according to BMW. Yeah, BUTIs it me or do people drive these engines at the same rpm as other petrol or even diesel engines and wonder where the grunt is? I drove the E92 M3 again Sunday and from 50mph in 5th (a gear which tops out at about 165mph) and it pulled fine. It was doing approx 2.5k rpm at that, whereas another car might be doing just 2k. Also, let's not forget the C63 AMG engine produces peak torque higher up its rev range than the M3
Edited by E38Ross on Thursday 26th July 09:08
BMW conveniently ignores the panoramic sunroof, the active seats and a host of other options, which make the car tip th scales at well over 2000kg. So if you think your M3 comes in at 1650kg - dream on...I had an E90 M3 for three years and changed in March this year. I always thought that it had plenty of performance using 'normal' rev range of 2,500 to 5,000 revs - so never thought it lacked torque. And when extended to the red line it sounded awsome.
I changed it for an F10 M5. I think it sounds pretty good, just doesn't have the range and quality of sound as the M3 or an E60 M5 pressing on (E60 doesn't sound as good at low revs as F10 IMO).
I changed it for an F10 M5. I think it sounds pretty good, just doesn't have the range and quality of sound as the M3 or an E60 M5 pressing on (E60 doesn't sound as good at low revs as F10 IMO).
AKA8 said:
The V10, particularly in the M6 for some reason, always sounds more interesting and that funny wail it gives out is very distinctive.
The V10 M6 has two less silencers in its exhaust than its M5 sibling. I've cut the silencers out of my M6 completely - it sounds insane, F1 like.
E38Ross said:
Cheburator mk2 said:
Simple answer - the M3 engine makes max power at 8300rpm and max torque at 4000rpm, which allows for a nice spread in the gearing. The V10 makes max power at 7750rpm and max torque at 6100rpm, which DOES NOT allow for any spacing in the gearing if you want to keep the engine in the narrow power/torque band for that relentless acceleration that the M5/M6 is famous for. Add to this the 2t of weight vs the 1.75t of the M3 and et voilla! - the M3 feels good with the 6spd, while the M5 feels sluggish compared to the maximum attack feeling that the 7spd SMG gives you.
The gearbox itself is very good - most E39 M5 have knackered plastic bushes in the linkage, which are worth about £10 from BMW, but the box has to come down in order to replace them, thus people go on about balky and heavy gearchange... In reality, on a fresh set of bushings or with a Schnitzer/Hamman/Dinann/Turner short shift, the box is a delight to shift.
The E60 M5 weighs about 1850kgs and the M3 about 1650kgs, but the way you described the engines suggests that the M3 had more low down torque, which isn't the case. The V10 is always making more power than the V8. I find it daft to think it NEEDS 7 gears when far less powerful 5 series cope with 6. The gearbox itself is very good - most E39 M5 have knackered plastic bushes in the linkage, which are worth about £10 from BMW, but the box has to come down in order to replace them, thus people go on about balky and heavy gearchange... In reality, on a fresh set of bushings or with a Schnitzer/Hamman/Dinann/Turner short shift, the box is a delight to shift.
Is it me or do people drive these engines at the same rpm as other petrol or even diesel engines and wonder where the grunt is? I drove the E92 M3 again Sunday and from 50mph in 5th (a gear which tops out at about 165mph) and it pulled fine. It was doing approx 2.5k rpm at that, whereas another car might be doing just 2k. Also, let's not forget the C63 AMG engine produces peak torque higher up its rev range than the M3
Edited by E38Ross on Thursday 26th July 09:08
Ditto the E92. I've driven a few now, and whilst I prefer a manual per se, the M3 is better suited to the 7spd DSG. Again, the engine is too peaky for the 6spd and the two feel at odds with one another as a result.
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