Discussion
Copied from todays electronic Times, just to cheer you all up!
British News
June 11, 2002
South East motorists face drastic charges
EVERY motorist in the South East of England should pay a mileage charge to combat the growing congestion emergency, a report commissioned by the Government says.
The report gives warning that unless drastic steps are taken, within 15 years more than three million more motorists will be travelling at dramatically reduced speeds on the congested M25.
Halliburton KBR, transport and engineering consultants, were commissioned two years ago by the Transport Department to write the report. They say that a charge of up to 16p a mile should be levied against all motorists driving in the region. The charge would apply to all drivers, whether travelling to work, the supermarket or taking their children to school.
Although the size of the proposed charging zone has yet to be established, initial proposals suggest that a commuter driving to and from London each day, doing a round trip of about 60 miles, would have to pay an extra £200 a month.
Motorists’ organisations condemned the scheme as a mileage tax on the already heavily penalised car-owning public. They also also feared that it would add to the confusion expected to be created by the £5 congestion charge to be introduced for driving into Central London.
The consultation report, Orbit: Transport Solutions Around London, The Provisional Strategy for 2016, published today, says that roadbuilding does “little more than buy a few years’ growth”. The consultants suggest motorway tolls, road widening, staggering traffic joining the M25, with heavier time penalties for cars with one occupant, and special fast lanes on the motorway for priority vehicles, including buses and taxis.
However, they believe that the most sensible scheme would involve all cars being fitted with a £300 satellite positioning system to log when vehicles enter the charging zone and to calculate the miles travelled. Bills for journeys would be sent to drivers each month. The extra income could be billions of pounds.
The level of charging could be adjusted depending on the type of motorist, whether they travel on the most congested roads and drive during rush hours. The charges would exclude emergency service vehicles and public transport.
The report says: “From the evidence to date, the consultants believe that road-user charging in some form is a necessary measure to manage traffic levels and achieve a significant improvement in travel conditions.”
While the initial report does not go into detail about the charges, its authors yesterday said that a charge of between 8p and 16p a mile could be considered. They believe that Global Positioning System computers will be fitted as standard in all new cars in the next few years. New laws would be required to make it illegal for a motorist to drive without the equipment.
The report adds: “The general principle that should be followed is that people should pay for the costs they impose on others, whether in the form of congestion, accidents or environmental impacts.”
It also underlines the need to improve bus and rail networks into London and calls for two separate orbital routes serving the outskirts of the capital. It recommends an orbital coach system on the M25 corridor and another route circling the motorway linking areas including Sevenoaks, Chelmsford, St Albans, High Wycombe, Guildford and Gatwick.
It suggests that a strategic coach authority should be set up to help to run the transport franchise. It also highlights the need for a new Thames crossing east of Dartford to connect the A12, A2 and M20.
David Hardcastle, the project director, said: “To put some brake on growth, at the same time as addressing congestion on the M25, a package of measures that combines new public transport alternatives with road widening and control of road use is necessary.
“We believe that for any road widening of the M25 to be sustainable it should be in conjunction with road-user charging.”
John Dawson, the AA’s policy director, said that the proposals were “desperate measures” that came after a dismal history of neglect for the M25. “Many motorists will feel this is utterly outrageous. Area-wide road-user taxing in Holland has caused uproar because people were being charged for going on local business in order to manage the motorways better.”
British News
June 11, 2002
South East motorists face drastic charges
EVERY motorist in the South East of England should pay a mileage charge to combat the growing congestion emergency, a report commissioned by the Government says.
The report gives warning that unless drastic steps are taken, within 15 years more than three million more motorists will be travelling at dramatically reduced speeds on the congested M25.
Halliburton KBR, transport and engineering consultants, were commissioned two years ago by the Transport Department to write the report. They say that a charge of up to 16p a mile should be levied against all motorists driving in the region. The charge would apply to all drivers, whether travelling to work, the supermarket or taking their children to school.
Although the size of the proposed charging zone has yet to be established, initial proposals suggest that a commuter driving to and from London each day, doing a round trip of about 60 miles, would have to pay an extra £200 a month.
Motorists’ organisations condemned the scheme as a mileage tax on the already heavily penalised car-owning public. They also also feared that it would add to the confusion expected to be created by the £5 congestion charge to be introduced for driving into Central London.
The consultation report, Orbit: Transport Solutions Around London, The Provisional Strategy for 2016, published today, says that roadbuilding does “little more than buy a few years’ growth”. The consultants suggest motorway tolls, road widening, staggering traffic joining the M25, with heavier time penalties for cars with one occupant, and special fast lanes on the motorway for priority vehicles, including buses and taxis.
However, they believe that the most sensible scheme would involve all cars being fitted with a £300 satellite positioning system to log when vehicles enter the charging zone and to calculate the miles travelled. Bills for journeys would be sent to drivers each month. The extra income could be billions of pounds.
The level of charging could be adjusted depending on the type of motorist, whether they travel on the most congested roads and drive during rush hours. The charges would exclude emergency service vehicles and public transport.
The report says: “From the evidence to date, the consultants believe that road-user charging in some form is a necessary measure to manage traffic levels and achieve a significant improvement in travel conditions.”
While the initial report does not go into detail about the charges, its authors yesterday said that a charge of between 8p and 16p a mile could be considered. They believe that Global Positioning System computers will be fitted as standard in all new cars in the next few years. New laws would be required to make it illegal for a motorist to drive without the equipment.
The report adds: “The general principle that should be followed is that people should pay for the costs they impose on others, whether in the form of congestion, accidents or environmental impacts.”
It also underlines the need to improve bus and rail networks into London and calls for two separate orbital routes serving the outskirts of the capital. It recommends an orbital coach system on the M25 corridor and another route circling the motorway linking areas including Sevenoaks, Chelmsford, St Albans, High Wycombe, Guildford and Gatwick.
It suggests that a strategic coach authority should be set up to help to run the transport franchise. It also highlights the need for a new Thames crossing east of Dartford to connect the A12, A2 and M20.
David Hardcastle, the project director, said: “To put some brake on growth, at the same time as addressing congestion on the M25, a package of measures that combines new public transport alternatives with road widening and control of road use is necessary.
“We believe that for any road widening of the M25 to be sustainable it should be in conjunction with road-user charging.”
John Dawson, the AA’s policy director, said that the proposals were “desperate measures” that came after a dismal history of neglect for the M25. “Many motorists will feel this is utterly outrageous. Area-wide road-user taxing in Holland has caused uproar because people were being charged for going on local business in order to manage the motorways better.”
The really nasty sting in the tail is the proposition that ALL cars be fitted with GPS, so the "Big Brother" fines for speeding at 70.0005mph on the A51 at 0203 in the morning is becoming a reality?????????
'kin tw@ts should be voted out of office fast and sunk in the deepest part of the sea...................and NO memorials!!!!
'kin tw@ts should be voted out of office fast and sunk in the deepest part of the sea...................and NO memorials!!!!
They can 
right off. F*cking stupid ahhh!!!!! B@stards. 
Does that mean when there's an accident everyone in the queue behind will get paid by the person who caused the accident? Or will they have to pay stupiding tax for being in a traffic jam? And then pay £5 more tax because they need to get to Heathrow. And then get arrested for going above 30 on a dual carriageway that used to carry an NSL. Stupid in ahhhh 
Need caffeine and nicotine.
right off. F*cking stupid ahhh!!!!! B@stards. quote:
The report adds: “The general principle that should be followed is that people should pay for the costs they impose on others, whether in the form of congestion, accidents or environmental impacts.”
Does that mean when there's an accident everyone in the queue behind will get paid by the person who caused the accident? Or will they have to pay stupid
ing tax for being in a traffic jam? And then pay £5 more tax because they need to get to Heathrow. And then get arrested for going above 30 on a dual carriageway that used to carry an NSL. Stupid in ahhhh Need caffeine and nicotine.
I somehow don't feel myself getting wound up by this..
It makes a cretinous argument which ignores several fundamental factors, which we have already discussed ad nauseum.
The report is a complete waste of time & money and IMO it'll be in the big round filing cabinet before the day's out.
It makes a cretinous argument which ignores several fundamental factors, which we have already discussed ad nauseum.
The report is a complete waste of time & money and IMO it'll be in the big round filing cabinet before the day's out.
quote:
'kin tw@ts should be voted out of office fast and sunk in the deepest part of the sea...................and NO memorials!!!!
?????
They're not in office. In case you misunderstood all these ideas are from a group of independent engineering consultants who were commissioned by the government to do this work. If the government don't commission such reports they are accused of ignoring the problem. And if they do they are blamed for whatever ideas the report comes up with, whether or not the government agree with them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/england/newsid_2037000/2037529.stm
The BBC take on it. Note the quote from the tree huggers. No response from any motorists organisation - thanks BBC
Same old f**king story. If you make motoring difficult and expensive enough it doesn't matter how sh*t the alternatives are. It's the easy way out of the problem again.
Luxury coaches to drive round the M25. Oh that's just f**king great. I walk the six miles from my house to the M25. Sit on a luxury coach for half an hour and then get dropped off at the M40 junction. That really, really helps me to get to Manchester. What colour is the sky where you live Mr Consultant? 'cos you sure as hell ain't living on the same planet as the rest of us.
The BBC take on it. Note the quote from the tree huggers. No response from any motorists organisation - thanks BBC
Same old f**king story. If you make motoring difficult and expensive enough it doesn't matter how sh*t the alternatives are. It's the easy way out of the problem again.
Luxury coaches to drive round the M25. Oh that's just f**king great. I walk the six miles from my house to the M25. Sit on a luxury coach for half an hour and then get dropped off at the M40 junction. That really, really helps me to get to Manchester. What colour is the sky where you live Mr Consultant? 'cos you sure as hell ain't living on the same planet as the rest of us.
quote:
quote:
'kin tw@ts should be voted out of office fast and sunk in the deepest part of the sea...................and NO memorials!!!!
?????
They're not in office. In case you misunderstood all these ideas are from a group of independent engineering consultants who were commissioned by the government to do this work. If the government don't commission such reports they are accused of ignoring the problem. And if they do they are blamed for whatever ideas the report comes up with, whether or not the government agree with them.
duuuhhh!!! I meant the idiots who commission such tripe!!!!!!!! Or wasn't my meaning clear enough?? IF so, sorry..... politicos are only useful as backstops on a rifle range!!!
The trouble with these reports are that they are commissioned on such a narrow viewpoint.
"What is the impact of increased traffic on congestion, and how can we reduce it" or some such.
Nothing about the reasons people travel, the economic and social benefits, which will also be curtailed directly with reducing the 'created' congestion.
Anyone with anything less than pinhole myopia can see the bigger picture, why not these fcukwits.
"What is the impact of increased traffic on congestion, and how can we reduce it" or some such.
Nothing about the reasons people travel, the economic and social benefits, which will also be curtailed directly with reducing the 'created' congestion.
Anyone with anything less than pinhole myopia can see the bigger picture, why not these fcukwits.
As most people in this country these days seem to be employed by the service industry in telesales and such like, why is it that these people can't work from home?? Why can't school buses be provided to reduce the number of women in 4x4s? Why are there so many salesmen in their mondeos and vectras - can't people just visit their website??
Its a pity that 'working from home' in the UK is still often considering as skiving off.
The 2500/18000 mile company car tax bands introduced by a previous government had a lot to do with many Vectra's and Mondeo's cruising up and down the M40. I was one of those Mondeo's, in 3 years I did 85K and since April 5th (when the car's lease expired) I've managed to avoid a single business mile. In fact I'm travelling up North today by public transport (Virgin Trains) and I'm quite looking forward to it.
The point about Mums in their 4X4's is often raised - but if they pay their taxes they have as much right to be on the road as anyone else. Collecting a small child from a school miles away is a far more justified journey than taking a TVR out on a Sunday morning for a bit of a laugh.
On the one hand you're saying you want no more taxes/schemes to deter motorists. Then on the other you're saying you don't want certain motorists using their cars at all.
The 2500/18000 mile company car tax bands introduced by a previous government had a lot to do with many Vectra's and Mondeo's cruising up and down the M40. I was one of those Mondeo's, in 3 years I did 85K and since April 5th (when the car's lease expired) I've managed to avoid a single business mile. In fact I'm travelling up North today by public transport (Virgin Trains) and I'm quite looking forward to it.
The point about Mums in their 4X4's is often raised - but if they pay their taxes they have as much right to be on the road as anyone else. Collecting a small child from a school miles away is a far more justified journey than taking a TVR out on a Sunday morning for a bit of a laugh.
On the one hand you're saying you want no more taxes/schemes to deter motorists. Then on the other you're saying you don't want certain motorists using their cars at all.
quote:Or train service!
Well I went to school on a bus for free. A high percentage of rush hour traffic is due to the school run, and it could be avoided if the government made a commitment to free school bus services.
Too true! I walked 1 mile to the station , took a steam !!! train for 3 stops then walked another mile to school, and that come rain or shine 5 days a week. Mind you I did steam (literally) sometimes at morning prayers after getting a thorough Edinburgh soaking!!!
But what fun we had on the train, can't have that in/on the MPV / 4x4 mummy numptie run can you!!!!
Why does everything the government does to discourage the use of cars seem to come down to cost? Its like they have this single minded attitude that if its infrastructure we need then the motorist must pay.
God forbid that they would look at the root cause of congestion. School runs must be stopped, every motorist knows how nice it is during school holiday, get some yellow buses you bunch of halfwits up there in whitehall, they work, its true, look at the septics. Now we have the school run sorted, lets look at commuters, is the way to decrease this by pricing people out of their cars and forcing them to use inadequate overpriced unsafe public transport, is it. The government should be providing incentives to employers to let their employees work from home, perhaps a discount on corporation tax or employers NI contributions would be a start. They may even find that in certain trades, IT for example, that it makes the nation as a whole more profitable.
They need to do something, mass suicide would be good, but anything reformist would be a start.
Matt.
God forbid that they would look at the root cause of congestion. School runs must be stopped, every motorist knows how nice it is during school holiday, get some yellow buses you bunch of halfwits up there in whitehall, they work, its true, look at the septics. Now we have the school run sorted, lets look at commuters, is the way to decrease this by pricing people out of their cars and forcing them to use inadequate overpriced unsafe public transport, is it
. The government should be providing incentives to employers to let their employees work from home, perhaps a discount on corporation tax or employers NI contributions would be a start. They may even find that in certain trades, IT for example, that it makes the nation as a whole more profitable. They need to do something, mass suicide would be good, but anything reformist would be a start.
Matt.
quote:
School runs must be stopped, every motorist knows how nice it is during school holiday,
Why?
Why SHOULD parents be stopped from using the roads? So you can blast around in your TVR without them getting in the way?
Why don't you stop using the TVR, so they can get their kids to school quicker?
Why SHOULD it be nicer for 'motorists'?
There are two sides to every argument, if the answers to Britain's motoring problems were so easy they would have been solved by now.
Slagging off the current goverment (which sadly seems to be trendy in Pistonheads) is not the way forward, the roads and public transport were in drastic decline with the previous administration.
There are plenty of posts about 'numpties', 'bliar' and Tranport 2000 in Pistonheads, but very few that understand the bigger picture - to use a phrase quoted earlier in this thread.
Oh - and before anyone accuses me of being a tree hugger again - I owned a TVR for over 10 years, just sold my Chimaera a few weeks ago. I often drove it purely for enjoyment, and I put up with heavy traffic because I appreciate that everyone else has as much right to use the roads as I have.
I think road pricing / congestion charging is potentially a good idea and I’m puzzled as to why it seems so unpopular on a forum such as this, made up of presumably motoring enthusiasts. I’m in favour of anything that will reduce the increasingly tedious daily congested grind that motoring has become. The costs of motoring in real terms is, I suspect, just about as low as it has ever been and this is one of the key factors leading to the ever increasing amount of traffic on our roads. Why were there so fewer cars 30 or 40 years ago? Simply because motoring was less affordable. I, for one, would love to see fewer cars on the roads, leading to quicker journey times and more driving pleasure, and would be happy to pay for it.
If congestion charging is applied intelligently, and I admit that’s a big if, it could increase many people's quality of life and might even make driving more fun.
Harry
If congestion charging is applied intelligently, and I admit that’s a big if, it could increase many people's quality of life and might even make driving more fun.
Harry
How can anyone argue that getting say 30 kids into a school bus instead of 20 or so cars is a bad thing. Nobody's arguing their parents have a right to use the roads but they are adding hugely to traffic and at rush hour too. I bet 1 fully trained bus driver would have far less accidents than 20 mothers on their mobile phones.
The government are trying to force the everyone to use public transport, why not start with the kids you never know they might continue to use public transport when they leave school.
The government are trying to force the everyone to use public transport, why not start with the kids you never know they might continue to use public transport when they leave school.
I think the answer would be that all thirty are coming from different places - especially in London. So either they all travel separately as they do now, or the bus has a 5 hour journey in a big circle round the school every morning to pick all the children up.
If you were a parent and it was cheaper and more convenient to take you children to school in your own car, what would you do?
If you were a parent and it was cheaper and more convenient to take you children to school in your own car, what would you do?
Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff