CO emissions MOT failure
CO emissions MOT failure
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Discussion

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Just picked up my car from the MOT. First MOT on MegaSquirt and failed the emissions test on HIgh CO. It passed without any problems on the Lucas ECU last year. Results as follows:

Fast Idle Test 1 - 4.79% limit 0.3%
Fast Idle Test 2 - 2.66%, limit 0.3%
Natura Idle Test - 2.314% limit 0.5%

Only just passed the AFR test so was running a bit rich. I can lean the MAP out a bit at the test RPM, however I'm not sure how much this will help the CO readings.

Considering trying one of the engine cleaning additives. ANyone have any succes with these, just wondered if anyof them really work.

Quietlybonkers

22,509 posts

174 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
I'll ask the stupid question - did you just dump it a random test centre and collect it later, or was it as friendly test centre and did you thoroughly warm it up before the CO was measured?

PRTVR

8,219 posts

251 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
This link might help

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

But as I point out it will not help if you have a fueling problem.

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Gave the car a good run before dropping it off, but then left the car at the garage as i didn't expect it to fail.

Going back next week but will arrange a time for the Emissions test so I can drive straight in and get the test done.

My main question was wether it is worth trying one of the engine cleaners, which is what the tester recommended.

Simon says

19,460 posts

251 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
You can rule out any Catayst problems with those readings, you need that plugged into a laptop as that is def a fueling error, are you running closed loop/lambda's?

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Gave the car a good run before dropping it off, but then left the car at the garage as i didn't expect it to fail.

Going back next week but will arrange a time for the Emissions test so I can drive straight in and get the test done.

My main question was wether it is worth trying one of the engine cleaners, which is what the tester recommended.

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
currently running in open loop, but i do have a wide band gauge on the dash.

unfortunately to get a smooth idle it seems to run a bit rich.

I'm going to try and improve the fueling at idle and fast idle RPM for the re-test. Will also look at setting it up in closed loop at these RPM.


blitzracing

6,422 posts

250 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
I tried a catalyst cleaning product that claimed a 30% reduction in emissions was possible. It was expensive (I think it was around £15 for a bottle), but it worked in so much the emissions did drop by 30%, but it still failed the MOT due to a fueling error (This was on a modern Fiat). Those figures are so far out you need to get to the route cause.

SILICONEKID340HP

14,997 posts

261 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Mine`s been through the MOT for the last 4 years without any advisories!

Car is Mechanicaly close to spot on but it`s amazing what another £10 does towards the emissionslaugh



Edited by SILICONEKID340HP on Sunday 5th August 11:40

Bassfiend

5,530 posts

280 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Have to admit this is my only worry after getting the CANEMS done - Lloyds have said that they have not had any issues with emissions so far but just to be safe I'm getting them to do my first MOT after it's been fitted and they've guaranteed that it'll get through... biggrin

Phil

Simon says

19,460 posts

251 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
That's not going to be a case of a thrash round the block as your not trying to clean off Lambda probes as your running open loop anyway frown you need to open the MS software and have a looksy before going any further read you can trim it at the test centre if you take the laptop with you that gets the MOT out of the way you can then look at the reason why the map as drifted after scratchchin I also get a nicer idle running slightly richer around 13.1 AFR but that is purely because the cam as quite a lot of overlap/duration wink there is absolutely no reason your MOT result should be a problem just because you have an after market ECU fitted ... in fact on the contrary as any minor tweaks can be done on the fly how many production cars can do that? bow

Edited by Simon says on Sunday 5th August 12:13

SILICONEKID340HP

14,997 posts

261 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
What AFR`s do they require at what RPM ? Would it be possible to burn the whole tune on map 2 then tweak and save it at the MOT station,then just swop the map over on the lap top when required or fit some type of switch .is that possible ?

Would a MOT compliant map result in poor idle and performance ?

Simon says

19,460 posts

251 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
Your car would not go through the Cat test regardless of what map you use Daz as you donent have a Cat fitted regardless of what anyone else tells you, yes it is possible ypu could swap between maps while your at the testing station, remember it is all no load running so you don't neccesarily have a car that runs like crap just because you meet Cat limits with Cat fitted of course.
I

SILICONEKID340HP

14,997 posts

261 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
SILICONEKID340HP said:
What AFR`s do they require at what RPM ? Would it be possible to burn the whole tune on map 2 then tweak and save it at the MOT station,then just swop the map over on the lap top when required or fit some type of switch .is that possible ?

Would a MOT compliant map result in poor idle and performance ?
Mine idles at 13.9 but i find richer the better it is ..

If i did have cats fitted what would be the afr`s at what rpm.

Simon says

19,460 posts

251 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
SILICONEKID340HP said:
SILICONEKID340HP said:
What AFR`s do they require at what RPM ? Would it be possible to burn the whole tune on map 2 then tweak and save it at the MOT station,then just swop the map over on the lap top when required or fit some type of switch .is that possible ?

Would a MOT compliant map result in poor idle and performance ?
Mine idles at 13.9 but i find richer the better it is ..
It probably does Daz, the RV8 likes fuel when tuned.

blitzracing

6,422 posts

250 months

Sunday 5th August 2012
quotequote all
The correct lambda point is 14.7:1 on most vehicles as the point the fuel burns at its most efficiently in terms of emissions, but I think the old RV8 and its Lambda feedback are actually set to run a bit richer-somewhere along the 14.3- 14.5 range- not managed to prove it however.

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Wednesday 15th August 2012
quotequote all
Went back in today with the laptop, leaned out the fuelling at Idle and the fast idle point and it passed the emissions test.

Only problem now is it failed on the wipers not working (sticking on the screen). Had the wipers on all the way to the test centre due to the st weather, so a bit annoyed that it should fail at the garage.

Suspect the wiper motor was hot following the emissions test and the guy just put the wipers on and full with a dry screen and burned out the motor when the wipers stopped.

Simon says

19,460 posts

251 months

Wednesday 15th August 2012
quotequote all
angus99 said:
Went back in today with the laptop, leaned out the fuelling at Idle and the fast idle point and it passed the emissions test.

Only problem now is it failed on the wipers not working (sticking on the screen). Had the wipers on all the way to the test centre due to the st weather, so a bit annoyed that it should fail at the garage.

Suspect the wiper motor was hot following the emissions test and the guy just put the wipers on and full with a dry screen and burned out the motor when the wipers stopped.
Well done thumbup if the w/motor as failed then look for Adrian@ or Adrian Venn on these very forums wink

angus99

Original Poster:

625 posts

239 months

Friday 17th August 2012
quotequote all
Managed to fix the wipers although may only be temporary fix and has been added as an advisery on the MOT certificate.

Here's the updated emissions read out.

Fast Idle - CO 0.253%, Lambda 0.989 (Original CO 4.89%, Lambda 0.86)
Natural Idle Test - CO 0.296 (Original 2.314%)

I did have to change back to the original map after leaving the test centre as the car ran very lean, as expected, in the areas where I’d changed on the VE table.

I suspect there is a problem with the way the map corrects for changes in manifold air temperature. During the emissions test the MAT was very high, so less air going in due to the lower density. The megasquirt map didn’t seem to correct for this and therefore the engine was running rich. Leaning out the map at the areas required for the MOT got it though the test at high MAT but was then lean at normal MAT of circa 22 degrees.

I’ll need to have a another look at the MAT correction settings, I’ve previously adjusted this to prevent the engine running lean at high MAT and probably overdid it.

At least I won't have to worry about it for another year.

SILICONEKID340HP

14,997 posts

261 months

Friday 17th August 2012
quotequote all
angus99 said:
Managed to fix the wipers although may only be temporary fix and has been added as an advisery on the MOT certificate.

Here's the updated emissions read out.

Fast Idle - CO 0.253%, Lambda 0.989 (Original CO 4.89%, Lambda 0.86)
Natural Idle Test - CO 0.296 (Original 2.314%)

I did have to change back to the original map after leaving the test centre as the car ran very lean, as expected, in the areas where I’d changed on the VE table.

I suspect there is a problem with the way the map corrects for changes in manifold air temperature. During the emissions test the MAT was very high, so less air going in due to the lower density. The megasquirt map didn’t seem to correct for this and therefore the engine was running rich. Leaning out the map at the areas required for the MOT got it though the test at high MAT but was then lean at normal MAT of circa 22 degrees.

I’ll need to have a another look at the MAT correction settings, I’ve previously adjusted this to prevent the engine running lean at high MAT and probably overdid it.

At least I won't have to worry about it for another year.
Is the air density slightly different up Scotland laugh

Are you running TPS ?