HELP! Dash Renovation Overcharge Nightmare
Discussion
I desperately need your advice. As you know, my car was taken into a shop to redesign and update the Ultima dash. I went to a fabricator who ONLY agreed to work for hourly wages. My car was dropped off in January and is still dismantled (not drivable). Every week there is VERY minimal progress and another HUGE bill (2K-5K!!!) My budget for the project has been shared with the fabricator several times (20K), but he does not respond. I told him a one point that he needs to stop charging me and get the job done if he wants any kind of good advertisement from my car. He instead packed up all the parts and said, come pick it up. HOSTAGE! I would never be able to get a partially completed job done somewhere else without more nightmares and costs. Currently the entire wiring system is being redone due to the new gauges and the incompatability of the old sensors / wiring with the new Autometer gauges. He expressed to me how challenging this is for him to figure out, and every minute is charged back to me. The cost of the project is more than buying a another Ultima at this point. I have no idea if he indeed puts the number of hours into my car as he charges for?? Maybe he is charging other customers for the same hours?? I never see other paying customers when I go in there. What can I do?? I feel like I am being extorted for money, and I am frustrated, upset, angry, and going broke. My wife is ready to go ballistic. Please HELP!
so you have been paying large sums of money up front with little in the way of progress on the work being paid for yet you have made further payments?
Sounds like he has had your pants down, probably nothing you can do at this stage but take it to someone else. Plenty of people will take on unfinished work, its money either way to them.
It does however look as if substantial work has been done to your car, so i dont know.
Why not ask him for a written breakdown of time spent on the car.
Sounds like an oportunity for an appearance on JUDGE JUDY....
Sounds like he has had your pants down, probably nothing you can do at this stage but take it to someone else. Plenty of people will take on unfinished work, its money either way to them.
It does however look as if substantial work has been done to your car, so i dont know.
Why not ask him for a written breakdown of time spent on the car.
Sounds like an oportunity for an appearance on JUDGE JUDY....
Edited by hedgefinder on Sunday 5th August 15:19
Edited by hedgefinder on Sunday 5th August 15:29
Is it still at the place that started the Dash Renovation ?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
looking at your previous postings it looks like a lot more than a simple dash remodel though..
screen out,body off, panelling off, loom out, rad out, plumbing out, modify chassis and rollcage, build new dash/console - possibly more.
Its virtually a full rebuild looking at it, which if done by a professional restoration company would be big bucks... even more so if they have little experience of Ultimas.
I could be wrong,
but lookinbg at thier website they seem to have added an awful lot of steelwork to the car - why?? Its meant to be a lightweight racer, not a lardy porker....
I do like the centre console by the way though.
screen out,body off, panelling off, loom out, rad out, plumbing out, modify chassis and rollcage, build new dash/console - possibly more.
Its virtually a full rebuild looking at it, which if done by a professional restoration company would be big bucks... even more so if they have little experience of Ultimas.
I could be wrong,
but lookinbg at thier website they seem to have added an awful lot of steelwork to the car - why?? Its meant to be a lightweight racer, not a lardy porker....
I do like the centre console by the way though.
Edited by hedgefinder on Sunday 5th August 19:10
To be honest, they decided to pull the top off to be able to approach the work easier..lol. One thing lead to another in terms of redesigning the dash cage to fit the new A/C unit. The floor was dismantled and discovered to be very flimsy with one thin crossmember, so they reinforced the cage around the foot well. All other pieces added are lightweight aluminum (cad) designed to add sound deadening without weight. This shop keeps digging and creating more and more work when the plan was a dash renovation. For them to dig into new areas creates more work and $$$. When they complete something, if they don't like it, they start all over, again, at my expense. All I keep begging for is for them to finish... Ultimate frustration.
DavidSalama said:
To be honest, they decided to pull the top off to be able to approach the work easier..lol. One thing lead to another in terms of redesigning the dash cage to fit the new A/C unit. The floor was dismantled and discovered to be very flimsy with one thin crossmember, so they reinforced the cage around the foot well. All other pieces added are lightweight aluminum (cad) designed to add sound deadening without weight. This shop keeps digging and creating more and more work when the plan was a dash renovation. For them to dig into new areas creates more work and $$$. When they complete something, if they don't like it, they start all over, again, at my expense. All I keep begging for is for them to finish... Ultimate frustration.
and in doing so have created a rather large ammount of work for themselves with a nice little endless supply of cash too...As I said before they have had your trousers round your ankles here.
Take the car elsewhere, unless they have been paid for work they havent done yet, then let them complete what they have been paid to do and remove your vehicle.
Unfortunately i see no cheap fixes here, that car needs substantial work to get back to usable condition which unless you do it yourself is going to cost you at least as much as you have already spent I should think.
Just to make you feel even sicker. My new Ultima loom, SPA digital dash and a reworking of the LS engine loom only took 2 days with a hand from SR.
It seems that you have given your builder free reign by paying him an hourly rate. In this sort of work you should get a job price. The very least should be rough finished price with additional work by agreement and price estimated.
Glass fibre work is time consuming, so best done either by an expert or better still by yourself.
Talk to other owners in the USofA and they may be able to guide you to someone who will help rather than fleece you.
Paul
It seems that you have given your builder free reign by paying him an hourly rate. In this sort of work you should get a job price. The very least should be rough finished price with additional work by agreement and price estimated.
Glass fibre work is time consuming, so best done either by an expert or better still by yourself.
Talk to other owners in the USofA and they may be able to guide you to someone who will help rather than fleece you.
Paul
most shops would likely only work on an hourly rate basis on a project such as that, BUT they should give you an ESTIMATE on costs for the whole job and only be doing additional works if you ok it.
If they do something and THEY dont like it they should be redoing it at their own expense.
If they do something and THEY dont like it they should be redoing it at their own expense.
DavidSalama said:
I desperately need your advice
Stop this madness NOW - Do not pay the last bill, (which can only have been produced last Friday) until he gives you a lot more detail about what "wiring" means on the spreadsheet - it is not sufficiently descriptive for you to judge whether the time spent is appropriate. With this type of working arrangement you would expect to get "progress reports" so that you know what has actually been achieved.
DavidSalama said:
He expressed to me how challenging this is for him to figure out, and every minute is charged back to me.
If he is not sufficiently competent to do the job, and he is "learning" whilst carrying out the wiring work, then he should be charging a much lower hourly rate for this part of the job.I have no way to know and will not comment on the fairness of the bill. I will comment that I have been the project manager on some very large helicopter programs. One peice of advise to everyone is: a written word up front, is worth hours of phone calls discussions ect after the project has started. I have fallen into this very same hole myself in my private projects because I did not heed my own professional advice. The people that any of use use for this kind of work should be professional. As such, spending some time over several E mails to document what you expect and what they see as the scope of work on a large project like this should not be considered extraordinary. For the shop to itemise to a greater detail then this bill reflects is only to be excpected. The other thing I will say is for those of us who have not fabricated complex projects like wiring on a exsisting car, building sheet metal brackets, anything that has to happen from scratch the amount of time can be staggering. Hope this might help some in the Ultima Clan going forward. Lee
Those bills are scary.
I think the important thing here for others contemplating a DIY car is if you can't DIY and have to pay others then realistically it's not a car for you.
In the Marcos world there are a couple of cheque book builds/restorations that have cost a fortune and will never get their money back,
With the exception of paint and engine builds which are best left to the experts these can all be priced up beforehand and most other jobs can be done at home in the garage with the satisfaction of DIYing yourself
I think the important thing here for others contemplating a DIY car is if you can't DIY and have to pay others then realistically it's not a car for you.
In the Marcos world there are a couple of cheque book builds/restorations that have cost a fortune and will never get their money back,
With the exception of paint and engine builds which are best left to the experts these can all be priced up beforehand and most other jobs can be done at home in the garage with the satisfaction of DIYing yourself
Edited by Martyn-123 on Monday 6th August 08:17
Edited by Martyn-123 on Monday 6th August 08:18
re- wiring....
the trouble here is that they werent "starting from scratch" with the wiring harness, they only had to modify it for the new guages - as I stated previously it isnt a Maybach... In this case they should have known what was needed before they started, not experiment at the owners expense.
the trouble here is that they werent "starting from scratch" with the wiring harness, they only had to modify it for the new guages - as I stated previously it isnt a Maybach... In this case they should have known what was needed before they started, not experiment at the owners expense.
OK,so we have done the words of wisdom, let's try to help.
You may not be aware of the wiring diagram that is available on here of the original Ultima loom which may help your builders.
It's here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Print that off and stick it together and give it to them.
Paul
You may not be aware of the wiring diagram that is available on here of the original Ultima loom which may help your builders.
It's here
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Print that off and stick it together and give it to them.
Paul
Tricky post to comment on. Looking at the thread from earlier on in the yr, it appears like there's a lot of fabrication involved, which is always tricky to estimate & judge value on, without the full details.
Over the 5-6yrs I’ve been looking into Ultimas (the last 2’ish clearly more intensely), I’ve seen some very interesting costs / standards from so-called specialists. There have been some frustrated people on this forum and it’s a real shame that these few vendors spoil the ownership experience for some folks.
In terms of advice, I’d suggest that if you trust the quality of work that the supplier delivers (it looks like you do from the earlier thread), I’d suggest looking to repair the relationship. Spend some time with the proprietor, explain calmly and without emotion that you’re concerned things are a little open-ended and that the project hasn’t necessarily got to the place you were expecting. It’s worth eating a little humble pie and suggesting that you may be a little to blame too for not explicitly stating expectations, but that you’d now like to look at restructuring things a little for the good of you both.
As stated by others, Ultima wiring really isn’t that hard, assuming that you’re starting from a std un-butchered setup. The diagram linked about is very good and is an absolute must for any builder, it won’t be 100% accurate (the looms / colours change from time to time), but it’ll be a godsend if they’ve not modified an Ultima one before.
From here, I’d suggest breaking the job down into work packages, agreeing a sequence and inspection & invoice milestones. With the job broken down, you might be in a better position to agree fixed price delivery on some components, however, be aware that if he’s constrained on price, the quality could suffer if he struggles to meet time estimates. Insist on a lot more detail in his billing, but with your advanced sign off.
Take a deep breath and if there’s a relationship to salvage, use a structured open and more hands-on approach, then with a bit of luck you’ll get to the finish line without losing all your hair!
HTH. Mark
Over the 5-6yrs I’ve been looking into Ultimas (the last 2’ish clearly more intensely), I’ve seen some very interesting costs / standards from so-called specialists. There have been some frustrated people on this forum and it’s a real shame that these few vendors spoil the ownership experience for some folks.
In terms of advice, I’d suggest that if you trust the quality of work that the supplier delivers (it looks like you do from the earlier thread), I’d suggest looking to repair the relationship. Spend some time with the proprietor, explain calmly and without emotion that you’re concerned things are a little open-ended and that the project hasn’t necessarily got to the place you were expecting. It’s worth eating a little humble pie and suggesting that you may be a little to blame too for not explicitly stating expectations, but that you’d now like to look at restructuring things a little for the good of you both.
As stated by others, Ultima wiring really isn’t that hard, assuming that you’re starting from a std un-butchered setup. The diagram linked about is very good and is an absolute must for any builder, it won’t be 100% accurate (the looms / colours change from time to time), but it’ll be a godsend if they’ve not modified an Ultima one before.
From here, I’d suggest breaking the job down into work packages, agreeing a sequence and inspection & invoice milestones. With the job broken down, you might be in a better position to agree fixed price delivery on some components, however, be aware that if he’s constrained on price, the quality could suffer if he struggles to meet time estimates. Insist on a lot more detail in his billing, but with your advanced sign off.
Take a deep breath and if there’s a relationship to salvage, use a structured open and more hands-on approach, then with a bit of luck you’ll get to the finish line without losing all your hair!
HTH. Mark
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