What is the point in SEAT?
Discussion
Now before I begin, this is not intended as a Seat-bashing vs fanboi thread. I've never owned one but know I lot that do and really like their cars. Also, this is not really a thread about VWs actual quality being no better than Ford etc etc. And let's introduce a virtual foam-pie in the face for the first mention that people "can't get there head's round the fact people will spend 30 feckin grand on a Golf!" Let's agree that it's now 2012 and they do.
Also mods, can I ask that this stays in GG as opposed to VAG as this is more from a Branding / Marketing / today you are the Boss of VAG group and profits are king and perceptions are reality for paying customers.
So, ignore some of the high end Brands within the group, this is about Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda.
I thought their plan was this:
Audi: 'Premium' to take on the German establishment
VW: 'everyday perceived quality' for everyone
Seat: 'sporty'
Skoda: 'budget'
Like it or not, VW and Audi seem to be doing in the market exactly what they set out to do.
Skoda is interesting. Look at the prices. Not that budget any more. And with things like the Yeti, market innovators as well.
And then there is Seat. Using the old Audi A4 platform makes commercial sense, but not exactly a platform to build sporty cars is it? The previous A4 was regularly flamed for being a dynamic nail and won very few fans who were looking for 'sporty' (RS4 excluded).
The rest of the Seat range just seem to be parts bin models. Not particularly outstanding at anything;
Exterior / Interior recent designs are pretty meh, so not as if VAG has let the designers go wild and take some risks to define themselves on that front.
The sporty versions are just that - but offer nothing more engine-wise than I can see vs the rest of the group - so not as if VAG is letting the drive-train boys take the lead there. Futhermore, Audi are established with the S and RS brands at a price, VW are pushing up the chain with the introdution of the R models and Skoda now have not only a rock-solid quality reputation but also a strong VrS following.
Handling - again, seem to be regarded OK, but I don't here that the Spanish boys really know how to shame a Golf GTi or Octavia - so the chassis team are either lacking direction / distinctive talents or forced to play me-too within the group.
Technology? Nope, I'm no expert on this, but I challenge anyone to give me an example of group-tech that was given for Seat to have first.
Look at how the hot hatch market is really hotting up with the arrival of the new Ford / Vauxhall entrants - you can't deny that the bulk of VAG sales are in the hatchback segment, so where does their sporty Seat brand feature in the great landgrab for headlines and column inches - nowhere is the answer as the Golf GTi is asked to step up and wade in to wave the VAG flag.
So, in conclusion I get the impression that Seat is not the sporty one, but the cheap / boring one, sold out on nothing more or less than cheapo monthly finance deals to the masses?
Willing to learn and admit I am wrong. Discuss.
Also mods, can I ask that this stays in GG as opposed to VAG as this is more from a Branding / Marketing / today you are the Boss of VAG group and profits are king and perceptions are reality for paying customers.
So, ignore some of the high end Brands within the group, this is about Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda.
I thought their plan was this:
Audi: 'Premium' to take on the German establishment
VW: 'everyday perceived quality' for everyone
Seat: 'sporty'
Skoda: 'budget'
Like it or not, VW and Audi seem to be doing in the market exactly what they set out to do.
Skoda is interesting. Look at the prices. Not that budget any more. And with things like the Yeti, market innovators as well.
And then there is Seat. Using the old Audi A4 platform makes commercial sense, but not exactly a platform to build sporty cars is it? The previous A4 was regularly flamed for being a dynamic nail and won very few fans who were looking for 'sporty' (RS4 excluded).
The rest of the Seat range just seem to be parts bin models. Not particularly outstanding at anything;
Exterior / Interior recent designs are pretty meh, so not as if VAG has let the designers go wild and take some risks to define themselves on that front.
The sporty versions are just that - but offer nothing more engine-wise than I can see vs the rest of the group - so not as if VAG is letting the drive-train boys take the lead there. Futhermore, Audi are established with the S and RS brands at a price, VW are pushing up the chain with the introdution of the R models and Skoda now have not only a rock-solid quality reputation but also a strong VrS following.
Handling - again, seem to be regarded OK, but I don't here that the Spanish boys really know how to shame a Golf GTi or Octavia - so the chassis team are either lacking direction / distinctive talents or forced to play me-too within the group.
Technology? Nope, I'm no expert on this, but I challenge anyone to give me an example of group-tech that was given for Seat to have first.
Look at how the hot hatch market is really hotting up with the arrival of the new Ford / Vauxhall entrants - you can't deny that the bulk of VAG sales are in the hatchback segment, so where does their sporty Seat brand feature in the great landgrab for headlines and column inches - nowhere is the answer as the Golf GTi is asked to step up and wade in to wave the VAG flag.
So, in conclusion I get the impression that Seat is not the sporty one, but the cheap / boring one, sold out on nothing more or less than cheapo monthly finance deals to the masses?
Willing to learn and admit I am wrong. Discuss.
Edited by Matt UK on Friday 10th August 12:08
I'm a bit confused by SEAT too.
Back in the days of the mk3 and mk4 Golf, they provided genuinely more sporty cars than the other elements of VAG. These days VW and crucially Skoda have got so much better to drive that they no longer seem to really offer much other than a slightly bigger turbocharger. I suppose some would argue that they offer more "youthful" styling, but modern SEATs look like MPVs to me.
Back in the days of the mk3 and mk4 Golf, they provided genuinely more sporty cars than the other elements of VAG. These days VW and crucially Skoda have got so much better to drive that they no longer seem to really offer much other than a slightly bigger turbocharger. I suppose some would argue that they offer more "youthful" styling, but modern SEATs look like MPVs to me.
Edited by kambites on Friday 10th August 11:40
The Exeo is an odd one. They obviously wanted to keep the old A4 platform within the group, and I guess Seat were the only brand without a saloon/estate of that size and they had the production capacity to take it. Given the very modest sales figures, I wonder if they'll bother to do a similar job again.
As for the rest, shared platforms and technologies make it very cheap to knock out different alternative models. VAG would rather you bought car from the group than something else, so if there's a niche to fill they can do it inside a sub-brand and not upset the others too much.
As you say, the traditional lines between these brands have become quite blurred. You can spend a little over £13k on an Audi, and £35k on a Skoda. Once the MQB platform (which will work for everything from Polo to Passat sized cars) replaces more of the old models, you'll have even more cases of getting essentially the same thing, just in different sizes, with different badges, and different levels of trim/spec.
As for the rest, shared platforms and technologies make it very cheap to knock out different alternative models. VAG would rather you bought car from the group than something else, so if there's a niche to fill they can do it inside a sub-brand and not upset the others too much.
As you say, the traditional lines between these brands have become quite blurred. You can spend a little over £13k on an Audi, and £35k on a Skoda. Once the MQB platform (which will work for everything from Polo to Passat sized cars) replaces more of the old models, you'll have even more cases of getting essentially the same thing, just in different sizes, with different badges, and different levels of trim/spec.
LeoZwalf said:
Matt UK said:
Audi: 'Premium' to take on the German establishment
VW: 'everyday perceived quality' for everyone
Seat: 'sporty'
Skoda: 'budget'
You have answered your own question Matt VW: 'everyday perceived quality' for everyone
Seat: 'sporty'
Skoda: 'budget'
That is exactly how they are intended and marketed by VAG.Most Leons and Ibizas I see these day look a bit racy, even if in actuality they're not, so they would seem to be bought by someone looking for something who mistakes a sporty car for one with a slightly racy bodykit and smart alloys and who maybe can't stretch to/doesn't want a Polo/Golf GTi.
On that topic, years ago I remember talking to a salesman about what I was looking for - which was basically something 'interesting' - and he said "OK, you're after something really sporty, how about a Seat Ibiza"... I didn't buy a car from him.
Although, to be fair, the old (really old now) Ibiza Cupras used to be fairly well thought of, as did Mk1 Leon Cupras - a bit hairier than the equivalent VWs. And the current Leons I think look nice. I had a dieselly one as a hirecar in Germany once and thought it was OK for what it was, and Knockhill used to have Cupras as school cars. When I went there I was impressed with them although they were a bit too soft and understeery to be taken too seriously as a track-capable car.
On that topic, years ago I remember talking to a salesman about what I was looking for - which was basically something 'interesting' - and he said "OK, you're after something really sporty, how about a Seat Ibiza"... I didn't buy a car from him.
Although, to be fair, the old (really old now) Ibiza Cupras used to be fairly well thought of, as did Mk1 Leon Cupras - a bit hairier than the equivalent VWs. And the current Leons I think look nice. I had a dieselly one as a hirecar in Germany once and thought it was OK for what it was, and Knockhill used to have Cupras as school cars. When I went there I was impressed with them although they were a bit too soft and understeery to be taken too seriously as a track-capable car.
I think Ibiza makes sense, as it does appear 'sporty' compared to Polo & Fabia. I helped my daughter buy a mk4 Ibiza in late 2004 but that was at a time when it was way cheaper than Polo, and Polo was still manual locking and had a cassette player. I think Ibiza had moved onto a newer platform ahead of Polo too. I would imagine the specs have all levelled out now. Depending on your age, you might laugh, but many young people think VW is 'posh',and aren't keen to own one.
I do get a sense that the brand is being run down - there isn't a dealer in our area (Chester / Wirral) and that's a big area to leave uncovered.
The dealers that there are generally have (according to SEAT forums) a univerally crap reputation. To be fair, that might be partly due to a 'younger' ownership demographic, but I certainly had problems with the dealer I used, and with SEAT UK, and there's no way I would qualify as 'younger'.
Perhaps the final thought answers the question - based on my experience I would never buy another SEAT, but happily replaced the Ibiza with a Golf. So that does kind of render SEAT pointless.
I do get a sense that the brand is being run down - there isn't a dealer in our area (Chester / Wirral) and that's a big area to leave uncovered.
The dealers that there are generally have (according to SEAT forums) a univerally crap reputation. To be fair, that might be partly due to a 'younger' ownership demographic, but I certainly had problems with the dealer I used, and with SEAT UK, and there's no way I would qualify as 'younger'.
Perhaps the final thought answers the question - based on my experience I would never buy another SEAT, but happily replaced the Ibiza with a Golf. So that does kind of render SEAT pointless.
Edited by Deva Link on Friday 10th August 12:08
Apollo Zensen said:
Well I'm a tight yorkshireman who drives a seat and think of the branding as follows:
Audi - for company cars and keeping up with Jones'
VW - for middle aged non-tight people
Skoda - for tight older people
Seat - for tight younger people
I really like that, just some of the audi models are on par with the best out there(a6,a8,q7 etc) Audi - for company cars and keeping up with Jones'
VW - for middle aged non-tight people
Skoda - for tight older people
Seat - for tight younger people
Apollo Zensen said:
Well I'm a tight yorkshireman who drives a seat and think of the branding as follows:
Audi - for company cars and keeping up with Jones'
VW - for middle aged non-tight people
Skoda - for tight older people
Seat - for tight younger people
Did anyone else read this and have in their head the engineer-type character from Twenty12; "I don't care who you are love, I'm from Yorkshire". Anyway, don't mind me, carry on.Audi - for company cars and keeping up with Jones'
VW - for middle aged non-tight people
Skoda - for tight older people
Seat - for tight younger people
slimtater said:
It is more about shares of the world market, not just what the 4 brands mean to the UK.
This I think. Just go to Spain or the Canary Islands and see how SEATs there are vs other makes.I personally like them, have had a couple of Ibizas where there wasn't a Polo (or Fabia) alternative at the time - Cupra 2.0 8v and Cupra 1.8 20VT.
I think they are suffering more in the UK for being too much like the other brands within the group - ie Fabia VRS & Polo GTI both having exactly the same motor/gearbox to the Ibiza Cupra.
Weeeelll...
GOLF GTi... speced with sat-nav, climate, cruise, dab etc = £26K+ with limited deals available.
Seat Leon FR+ TSi pretty much identical engine and mechanicals, with all the spec above as standard. DtD brand new price £17.5K
So we bought the Leon. Yes the interior is low rent compared to the Golf, but all the bits you touch (wheel gearstick, seats) are good and mechanically basically identical to the golf. All for almost 50% less than the Golf would cost you.
GOLF GTi... speced with sat-nav, climate, cruise, dab etc = £26K+ with limited deals available.
Seat Leon FR+ TSi pretty much identical engine and mechanicals, with all the spec above as standard. DtD brand new price £17.5K
So we bought the Leon. Yes the interior is low rent compared to the Golf, but all the bits you touch (wheel gearstick, seats) are good and mechanically basically identical to the golf. All for almost 50% less than the Golf would cost you.
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