When does a backmarker become dangerously slow?
Discussion
Note: I'm being vague here as you never know who is reading...
I spent a very enjoyable day watching some classic motor racing today at a particular venue. One of the races was a for a championship focused on historic single seaters with very large American engines; this is a championship I've seen many many rounds of over the years.
Now, one of the competitors in this championship races alongside her husband. However, whilst her husband is often at the front of the field, this lady is ALWAYS at the back. She is so slow that during a safety car period in today's race she was still dropping back from the leaders despite driving at her normal race speed!
After chatting to several spectators, several facts emerged: all the fans of the series also think she is useless, and a large number of the drivers think her mobile chicane antics are a complete pain in the arse, if not verging on dangerously slow.
clearly, the lady doesnt know when to quit but apparently, as much as the organising body behind the race would like to ask her to politely desist from "racing", they cant because her husband happens to be a major donor.
I therefore appreciate the organising body is in a difficult situation here, but having witnessed said driver's lack of confidence/talent on many occasions I am of the opinion that it is only a matter of time before she causes a massive accident - should the leaders of the race (and by god do they push the cars just as fast as when they were new) round a corner and plough straight into the back of what may as well be a stationary car. I gather most professional series have the 110% qualifying rule for this very reason, although I realise in hobby motorsport this would remove half the field and alientate competitors - but whilst I appreciate she should be entitled to pursue a hobby, should it be at the risk of other driver's safety?
I spent a very enjoyable day watching some classic motor racing today at a particular venue. One of the races was a for a championship focused on historic single seaters with very large American engines; this is a championship I've seen many many rounds of over the years.
Now, one of the competitors in this championship races alongside her husband. However, whilst her husband is often at the front of the field, this lady is ALWAYS at the back. She is so slow that during a safety car period in today's race she was still dropping back from the leaders despite driving at her normal race speed!
After chatting to several spectators, several facts emerged: all the fans of the series also think she is useless, and a large number of the drivers think her mobile chicane antics are a complete pain in the arse, if not verging on dangerously slow.
clearly, the lady doesnt know when to quit but apparently, as much as the organising body behind the race would like to ask her to politely desist from "racing", they cant because her husband happens to be a major donor.
I therefore appreciate the organising body is in a difficult situation here, but having witnessed said driver's lack of confidence/talent on many occasions I am of the opinion that it is only a matter of time before she causes a massive accident - should the leaders of the race (and by god do they push the cars just as fast as when they were new) round a corner and plough straight into the back of what may as well be a stationary car. I gather most professional series have the 110% qualifying rule for this very reason, although I realise in hobby motorsport this would remove half the field and alientate competitors - but whilst I appreciate she should be entitled to pursue a hobby, should it be at the risk of other driver's safety?
Miss Judy - for it is she I assume- overtook somebody at HSCC Croft. I saw it with my own eyes. She improved her lap time by 6 seconds between qualifying and race.To a speed about the same as I managed in a 1400 cc Caterham on the wrong tyres. And I'm not the next Senna...But her family own fantastic cars so it's ok by me- the battle between son Michael and Simon Hadfield at Silverstone Classic was the highlight of the meeting. Good luck to her- she uses her mirrors .
Tony Dron has been bleating on about slow backmarkers in Octane for the last few months. If the rest of the grid know that a driver is going to be slow but also know that they are experienced enough to be looking in their mirrors after three laps, i cant see a problem. The leaders know they will lap her, she knows she will be lapped and stays out of the way, there is much less danger than it would appear. The greater danger is the driver who is either not using his mirrors or unable to appreciate how slow he/she is and unaware of their surroundings thus drives in an unpredictable manner meaning the faster drivers can not commit to a line.
Take the Morgans at castle combe yesteday, Keith Ahlers won comprehensively by virtue of having the fastest car and being the most experienced driver. The gap between pole and last on the grid was probably close to 30 seconds but being experienced Ahlers and the other fast drivers were pretty good at getting past people and not held up, largely becuase of the speed differential but also because the slowest cars were using their mirrors and expecting them, stayed off line etc
Same situation as you describe, it just sounds like you're just a tiny bit jealous...
Take the Morgans at castle combe yesteday, Keith Ahlers won comprehensively by virtue of having the fastest car and being the most experienced driver. The gap between pole and last on the grid was probably close to 30 seconds but being experienced Ahlers and the other fast drivers were pretty good at getting past people and not held up, largely becuase of the speed differential but also because the slowest cars were using their mirrors and expecting them, stayed off line etc
Same situation as you describe, it just sounds like you're just a tiny bit jealous...
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 28th August 09:19
pablo said:
stayed off line etc
This is where it can get scary. During Britcar events and driver briefings ( as thats what I have experience of) all backmarkers are told to stick to the racing line and let the faster cars find their way past. When slower cars actively start trying to get out of the way accidents can happen.Edited by pablo on Tuesday 28th August 09:19
Shes raced in many races for many years and not yet caused an accident i believe, there are many drivers at the front who have been involved in many more incidents than her. Up to the organisers i guess. She does use her mirrors, give plenty of space and gets out of the way very early for what its worth.
To be honest HSCC driving standards are generally pretty good, the fact she drives in so many races and rarey is involved in any trouble means in my opinion she isn't a danger.
To be honest HSCC driving standards are generally pretty good, the fact she drives in so many races and rarey is involved in any trouble means in my opinion she isn't a danger.
Obiwonkeyblokey said:
This is where it can get scary. During Britcar events and driver briefings ( as thats what I have experience of) all backmarkers are told to stick to the racing line and let the faster cars find their way past. When slower cars actively start trying to get out of the way accidents can happen.
Its different in an open car though, where a person can take a wide line through a corner accompanied by an obvious wave to the person behind lapping. Generally a person lapping shoulod expect the backmarker to stick to the racing line, however its much prefered to me (when lapping) to have them take a wide entry and wave me through. Same when im being lapped, i prefere to take a wide line and get a late apex/early on the throttle corner exit, rather than stick to the racing line and worry about whether the car lapping will go down the inside or outside on entry or exit etc.
Forbes82 said:
Its different in an open car though, where a person can take a wide line through a corner accompanied by an obvious wave to the person behind lapping. Generally a person lapping shoulod expect the backmarker to stick to the racing line, however its much prefered to me (when lapping) to have them take a wide entry and wave me through.
Same when im being lapped, i prefere to take a wide line and get a late apex/early on the throttle corner exit, rather than stick to the racing line and worry about whether the car lapping will go down the inside or outside on entry or exit etc.
but your bringing that uncertaincy in yourself. if you always stick to your line when being lapped then nobody will chance it up the inside on the chance that you,ll go wide..Same when im being lapped, i prefere to take a wide line and get a late apex/early on the throttle corner exit, rather than stick to the racing line and worry about whether the car lapping will go down the inside or outside on entry or exit etc.
Forbes82 said:
Its different in an open car though, where a person can take a wide line through a corner accompanied by an obvious wave to the person behind lapping. Generally a person lapping shoulod expect the backmarker to stick to the racing line, however its much prefered to me (when lapping) to have them take a wide entry and wave me through.
Same when im being lapped, i prefere to take a wide line and get a late apex/early on the throttle corner exit, rather than stick to the racing line and worry about whether the car lapping will go down the inside or outside on entry or exit etc.
I disagree.Same when im being lapped, i prefere to take a wide line and get a late apex/early on the throttle corner exit, rather than stick to the racing line and worry about whether the car lapping will go down the inside or outside on entry or exit etc.
I can see where you're coming from and why it could be seen as "good form" however in other series I've also raced in ( open cars) we all stuck to the same principle, otherwise your "goodwill gesture" could end in tears..
I would be concerned about participating in a series where there was no clear understanding of the overtaking a backmarker rule.
I raced at Spa in the 6hr last year in a 1.8 litre TVR and was often being overtaken by GT40s and the like whilst conducting my own race with Porsches and MGs etc. Without exception every overtaking car found their own way past and that was in a field of almost 100 cars of varying pace.
If you're leading a race then generally it could be assumed that youre a competent driver with experience ( most of the time). On that basis most experenced drivers will be lokking well ahead to work out how to deal with traffic anyway and they should be looking at alternative routes through corners. If you were then to spot them coming up on you and move off line, this has the potential to not only cause accidents, but as a minimum inconvenience the faster driver.
Unless of course your name is Felipe...
Edited by Obiwonkeyblokey on Friday 31st August 08:49
There is skill involved in successfully passing and also being passed. The principle of sticking to the racing line is a good one however if a car is lapping and racing for a lead position its not unusual for the quicker car to force the point and yielding at the right point after careful inspection of the mirrors is a good move by the slower car in that situation. Lap time differentials and speed differentials are far less relevant than the drivers observational skills.
i spent my first couple of years in caterhams looking at the qualifying sheets to see if (and when) i would get lapped by the leaders. awareness and observation is all that's required by both lapper and lappee to avoid trouble.
i remember a combined race at snetterton with roadsports, r300's and mx5's on the same grid - three abreast round coram being lapped by an r300 while lapping an mx5 was pretty interesting but it's just the nature of any race with mixed classes.
if you start kicking people out because they are 'too slow', where do you draw the line? 10% slower than pole? most series and circuits need as many racers as possible - there's not too many oversubscribed grids in club racing. and i'm pretty sure organisers are not going to refund entry fees to someone who is 11% off the pace after quali.
As ever, it's driving standards that are important in these cases, from both the faster and the slower competitors. as long as everyone is clear what is expected of slower cars (backed up by blue flags if required) then all should be able to race. imo.
si
i remember a combined race at snetterton with roadsports, r300's and mx5's on the same grid - three abreast round coram being lapped by an r300 while lapping an mx5 was pretty interesting but it's just the nature of any race with mixed classes.
if you start kicking people out because they are 'too slow', where do you draw the line? 10% slower than pole? most series and circuits need as many racers as possible - there's not too many oversubscribed grids in club racing. and i'm pretty sure organisers are not going to refund entry fees to someone who is 11% off the pace after quali.
As ever, it's driving standards that are important in these cases, from both the faster and the slower competitors. as long as everyone is clear what is expected of slower cars (backed up by blue flags if required) then all should be able to race. imo.
si
mat777 said:
Note: I'm being vague here as you never know who is reading...
I spent a very enjoyable day watching some classic motor racing today at a particular venue. One of the races was a for a championship focused on historic single seaters with very large American engines; this is a championship I've seen many many rounds of over the years.
Now, one of the competitors in this championship races alongside her husband. However, whilst her husband is often at the front of the field, this lady is ALWAYS at the back. She is so slow that during a safety car period in today's race she was still dropping back from the leaders despite driving at her normal race speed!
After chatting to several spectators, several facts emerged: all the fans of the series also think she is useless, and a large number of the drivers think her mobile chicane antics are a complete pain in the arse, if not verging on dangerously slow.
clearly, the lady doesnt know when to quit but apparently, as much as the organising body behind the race would like to ask her to politely desist from "racing", they cant because her husband happens to be a major donor.
I therefore appreciate the organising body is in a difficult situation here, but having witnessed said driver's lack of confidence/talent on many occasions I am of the opinion that it is only a matter of time before she causes a massive accident - should the leaders of the race (and by god do they push the cars just as fast as when they were new) round a corner and plough straight into the back of what may as well be a stationary car. I gather most professional series have the 110% qualifying rule for this very reason, although I realise in hobby motorsport this would remove half the field and alientate competitors - but whilst I appreciate she should be entitled to pursue a hobby, should it be at the risk of other driver's safety?
If a driver cannot see the slower car in front and react in a safe way then they should not be racing. Theres always going to be someone who is slowest. Good forward vision and use of mirrors is vital for all on the track to race cleanly. Your right to race is not down to how fast you drive, but how safe you are round the circuit.I spent a very enjoyable day watching some classic motor racing today at a particular venue. One of the races was a for a championship focused on historic single seaters with very large American engines; this is a championship I've seen many many rounds of over the years.
Now, one of the competitors in this championship races alongside her husband. However, whilst her husband is often at the front of the field, this lady is ALWAYS at the back. She is so slow that during a safety car period in today's race she was still dropping back from the leaders despite driving at her normal race speed!
After chatting to several spectators, several facts emerged: all the fans of the series also think she is useless, and a large number of the drivers think her mobile chicane antics are a complete pain in the arse, if not verging on dangerously slow.
clearly, the lady doesnt know when to quit but apparently, as much as the organising body behind the race would like to ask her to politely desist from "racing", they cant because her husband happens to be a major donor.
I therefore appreciate the organising body is in a difficult situation here, but having witnessed said driver's lack of confidence/talent on many occasions I am of the opinion that it is only a matter of time before she causes a massive accident - should the leaders of the race (and by god do they push the cars just as fast as when they were new) round a corner and plough straight into the back of what may as well be a stationary car. I gather most professional series have the 110% qualifying rule for this very reason, although I realise in hobby motorsport this would remove half the field and alientate competitors - but whilst I appreciate she should be entitled to pursue a hobby, should it be at the risk of other driver's safety?
If she's as slow as you say then overtaking her is not going to be difficult....
When does a leading driver become dangerously fast?
When they drive like this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-9bhZUlavc
A problem I have had several times is that the car I am lapping is actually quicker down the straight than mine meaning I have to overtake on the brakes or in the corners, this is fine if the driver in front is using mirrors and knows what is going on, also makes it tricky for the marshals and blue flags etc.
Martin B said:
A problem I have had several times is that the car I am lapping is actually quicker down the straight than mine meaning I have to overtake on the brakes or in the corners, this is fine if the driver in front is using mirrors and knows what is going on, also makes it tricky for the marshals and blue flags etc.
This is where a backmarker not sticking to a racing line can be beneficial as i tried to explain above. I noticed at Spa numerous occasions where the Caterhams/Marussias 'got out of the way' rather than sticking to a racing line and were praised for it by the commentators. Often you need a bit of co-operation because its hard to get past a car with much more power on the straight as its easy to be held up through the twistys by a wide car sticking to a racing line, then see them stretch the gap down the straight.I'm not saying all backmarkers should jump out of the way, i'm saying if there is an opportune moment to do it safely, then it can be appreciated for the backmarker to give some space. Sticking to the racing line should be the norm, and a backmarker shouldn't be making quick movements left or right to get out of the way, but a wide line can often benefit everyone involved.
Forbes82 said:
This is where a backmarker not sticking to a racing line can be beneficial as i tried to explain above. I noticed at Spa numerous occasions where the Caterhams/Marussias 'got out of the way' rather than sticking to a racing line and were praised for it by the commentators. Often you need a bit of co-operation because its hard to get past a car with much more power on the straight as its easy to be held up through the twistys by a wide car sticking to a racing line, then see them stretch the gap down the straight.
I'm not saying all backmarkers should jump out of the way, i'm saying if there is an opportune moment to do it safely, then it can be appreciated for the backmarker to give some space. Sticking to the racing line should be the norm, and a backmarker shouldn't be making quick movements left or right to get out of the way, but a wide line can often benefit everyone involved.
F1 has different rules, that say the lapped cars must jump out of the way, you dont want them holding up the rich teams lol.I'm not saying all backmarkers should jump out of the way, i'm saying if there is an opportune moment to do it safely, then it can be appreciated for the backmarker to give some space. Sticking to the racing line should be the norm, and a backmarker shouldn't be making quick movements left or right to get out of the way, but a wide line can often benefit everyone involved.
I think that evo accident highlights the problem of going off line very well.
the saxo had stayed wide, so all 3 lapping cars tried to jump through the inside, trouble is the saxo and the last evo were always going to meet at the exit, as the evo was fully committed, and need all of the track.
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