ECU Advice Sought
Discussion
Without going into great detail I have a car I believe is probably well down on power and not for any mechanical / wear or basic tuning related reasons.
The engine is not completely standard although I believe the ECU probably is.
I know the stock answer would be to book a RR and arrange for Mark Adams to set up the fuelling correctly but as I am in Australia his travel costs are going to make it a bit pricey.
Am I correct in assuming I have the following three options -
1. Replace the ECU with an after market programmable system (and does anyone have any experience of doing this on a limited budget - Motec ?).
2. Purchase a Mark Adams adjustable Tornado chip to allow the RR techs here to set it up (again does anyone have any experience of this on a wedge).
3. Get someone to hack the software off Marks laptop.
Otherwise aside from better timing and basic mixture adjustment and possibly fiddling with AFM outputs I imagine all a RR session would do is give me a pretty depressing graph to look at.
Any advice would be appreciated (esp. from MA).
The engine is not completely standard although I believe the ECU probably is.
I know the stock answer would be to book a RR and arrange for Mark Adams to set up the fuelling correctly but as I am in Australia his travel costs are going to make it a bit pricey.
Am I correct in assuming I have the following three options -
1. Replace the ECU with an after market programmable system (and does anyone have any experience of doing this on a limited budget - Motec ?).
2. Purchase a Mark Adams adjustable Tornado chip to allow the RR techs here to set it up (again does anyone have any experience of this on a wedge).
3. Get someone to hack the software off Marks laptop.
Otherwise aside from better timing and basic mixture adjustment and possibly fiddling with AFM outputs I imagine all a RR session would do is give me a pretty depressing graph to look at.
Any advice would be appreciated (esp. from MA).
What fuel pressure regulator, air flow meter,injectors do you have at the moment? IMHO by changeing the ECU what you gain is "controllability" of the electro/mechanical bits already on car. Jag air flow and bigger injectors with a FSE regulator would be first on list (but as yours is a 450 maybe you have the first 2 anyway). I would have thought youd get plenty of power as standard assuming set up correctly.
Then of course there is the ACT goodies to fit.
Then of course there is the ACT goodies to fit.
Richard,
The fuel pressure regulator is standard, am in the UK in October and plan to pick up the FSE item then. I believe the AFM is the Jag item (Lucas 2AM ?) and that the injectors are larger also.
The engine has been stripped (all components looked new - it was supposedly recently rebuilt) - cam is a 404 with solid lifters and valves have been dialled in.
I have no idea what kind of figures it is producing - it certainly chews fuel and is pretty quick - sometimes it feels very quick and pick up is explosive but on other occasions whilst it doesn't sound any different the response and acceleration is somehow muted.
Throttle response is noticeably improved if the air is denser and if the engine has been really warmed through but even so when it felt particularly bad the other day I would estimate it would have struggled to run a sub 7 second to 60. Other times booting it in a lower gear and you really need to be quick to change up as it hurtles past 6k.
There is also a very bad hesitation between 2100 - 2400 rpm to the point where you cannot drive at a constant speed in this band, very annoying as cruising at the speed limits you tend to be in this region. It is so bad that the engine will misfire and almost blow back causing the right foot to bounce on the throttle pedal thereby further accentuating the problem (bit like a learner pulling a kangaroo start).
Does this point towards the ditributor advance settings or just a poorly blanaced motor ?
As for the c/f stuff would be nice if I could afford it - I think SWMBO needs a year or so first to get over the last 6 mths costs before I start working on that.
The fuel pressure regulator is standard, am in the UK in October and plan to pick up the FSE item then. I believe the AFM is the Jag item (Lucas 2AM ?) and that the injectors are larger also.
The engine has been stripped (all components looked new - it was supposedly recently rebuilt) - cam is a 404 with solid lifters and valves have been dialled in.
I have no idea what kind of figures it is producing - it certainly chews fuel and is pretty quick - sometimes it feels very quick and pick up is explosive but on other occasions whilst it doesn't sound any different the response and acceleration is somehow muted.
Throttle response is noticeably improved if the air is denser and if the engine has been really warmed through but even so when it felt particularly bad the other day I would estimate it would have struggled to run a sub 7 second to 60. Other times booting it in a lower gear and you really need to be quick to change up as it hurtles past 6k.
There is also a very bad hesitation between 2100 - 2400 rpm to the point where you cannot drive at a constant speed in this band, very annoying as cruising at the speed limits you tend to be in this region. It is so bad that the engine will misfire and almost blow back causing the right foot to bounce on the throttle pedal thereby further accentuating the problem (bit like a learner pulling a kangaroo start).
Does this point towards the ditributor advance settings or just a poorly blanaced motor ?
As for the c/f stuff would be nice if I could afford it - I think SWMBO needs a year or so first to get over the last 6 mths costs before I start working on that.
With you being in Oz then the motec is your most versatile bet but it's pretty expensive. Here we have a DTAfast which has the same features for less money. You would be able to get a motec set up any way you liked though. If you look at the Wolf ems that comes with a nice lcd hand held calibrator so you could make changes yourself without using the laptop. You have so much choice, I'm envious. All the good stuff seems to be in Melbourne.
You could email Mark Adams and see what he says. He may be having a good day when he gets your mail, you never can tell
You could email Mark Adams and see what he says. He may be having a good day when he gets your mail, you never can tell
chunder said:
Richard,
There is also a very bad hesitation between 2100 - 2400 rpm to the point where you cannot drive at a constant speed in this band, very annoying as cruising at the speed limits you tend to be in this region. It is so bad that the engine will misfire and almost blow back causing the right foot to bounce on the throttle pedal thereby further accentuating the problem (bit like a learner pulling a kangaroo start).
Have just been through the same thing with mine. Garage couldn't sort it! I then changed the coil and in doing so found a corroded crimp on the negative side of the coil (i think it was from the ignition module) it seems to have cured it but i am uncertain if the fix was the new coil,the renewed wire crimp or maybe some other wire that i "moved"
its now much much better but like you i feel that there is more horses waiting to get out.
Maybe worth you going down this route before the big spend.
PS. FSE is next on my list too, to improve throttle response. (works a treat on the 350)
>> Edited by dickymint on Wednesday 18th August 17:00
[quote=rev-erend]You could always throw it all away and fit some huge webbers like (search profiles) Cirks (460se) and Gerjo (griff 5.0)..
thats probably the best advice - ditch the ecu and the injectors and fit some carbs (me tuppence worth cos I fecked around with ecus on mine for ages - it is sorted now but it was aggro and I am in the uk - so if I was in oz....etc etc
)
thats probably the best advice - ditch the ecu and the injectors and fit some carbs (me tuppence worth cos I fecked around with ecus on mine for ages - it is sorted now but it was aggro and I am in the uk - so if I was in oz....etc etc
)Boosted Ls1 said:
With you being in Oz then the motec is your most versatile bet but it's pretty expensive. Here we have a DTAfast which has the same features for less money. You would be able to get a motec set up any way you liked though. If you look at the Wolf ems that comes with a nice lcd hand held calibrator so you could make changes yourself without using the laptop. You have so much choice, I'm envious. All the good stuff seems to be in Melbourne.
You could email Mark Adams and see what he says. He may be having a good day when he gets your mail, you never can tell
The motec seems to start at $1200 odd (500 quid) which is out of reach for the moment. I have been scouring the classifieds for either this or a used Wolf system but they are very rare. Will check out the DTAfast.
I have emailed Mark to see if he has any suggestions (or unwanted Tornado chips laying around) and he is probably so busy he hasn't had a chance to respond yet
Funds are tight so what there is can't be wasted but I am convinced there's a few horses that can be found together with a degree of smoothing.
I don't really like the idea of carbs - it may prove ultimately more reliable but would have thought the initial costs are going to be pretty high.
Richard, note your comments - will have a look in this area over the weekend.
Any further comments and advice on this issue much appreciated.
Hi Chunder, I hope that you have the rad fans sorted now.
I'm no good with ECUs but a few things did strike me.
Mark Adams is quite helpful and he does have other electronic bits apart from ECUs so good luck there.
The standard air flow meter for the 450 is a Rover one; people fitted the Jag one after market to increase the air flow - if your ecu has not been adjusted for this I wonder whether this could be part (hopefully all??) of your problem.
Hardly any 450s were built. 12? I doubt whether there is a standard ecu. Also have you seen the shape of the power curve for the 450 engine? It has a very weird kink at about 4K and does not tail off - very different to the 350 and 400.
As you describe the engine I would guess at 350 TVRBHP or 300 on most other scales at the fly wheel or 255 at the wheels. Otherwise known as very fast.
I'm no good with ECUs but a few things did strike me.
Mark Adams is quite helpful and he does have other electronic bits apart from ECUs so good luck there.
The standard air flow meter for the 450 is a Rover one; people fitted the Jag one after market to increase the air flow - if your ecu has not been adjusted for this I wonder whether this could be part (hopefully all??) of your problem.
Hardly any 450s were built. 12? I doubt whether there is a standard ecu. Also have you seen the shape of the power curve for the 450 engine? It has a very weird kink at about 4K and does not tail off - very different to the 350 and 400.
As you describe the engine I would guess at 350 TVRBHP or 300 on most other scales at the fly wheel or 255 at the wheels. Otherwise known as very fast.
chunder said:
There is also a very bad hesitation between 2100 - 2400 rpm to the point where you cannot drive at a constant speed in this band, very annoying as cruising at the speed limits you tend to be in this region. It is so bad that the engine will misfire and almost blow back causing the right foot to bounce on the throttle pedal thereby further accentuating the problem (bit like a learner pulling a kangaroo start).
Had the same problem on my 400SE and eventually traced it to a broken wire going into the airflow meter. At around 3000rpm the vibration must have shook that part of the loom and broke the circuit giving erratic acceleration - sometimes!
10 minutes with a multi-meter - may be worth a look..
19560 said:
Hi Chunder, I hope that you have the rad fans sorted now.
Thanks, twin fans, adjustable switch, relocated oil cooler, modified rad, DIY front undertray and rad sealed around the edge - temp now comes down when moving. Plenum insulator, insulated intake pipes, relocated AFM - filter and header tank and cold air box with scoop feed currently under construction.
19560 said:
I'm no good with ECUs but a few things did strike me.
Mark Adams is quite helpful and he does have other electronic bits apart from ECUs so good luck there.
The standard air flow meter for the 450 is a Rover one; people fitted the Jag one after market to increase the air flow - if your ecu has not been adjusted for this I wonder whether this could be part (hopefully all??) of your problem.
This would be a big part but what's the best way of curing it ?
19560 said:
Hardly any 450s were built. 12? I doubt whether there is a standard ecu. Also have you seen the shape of the power curve for the 450 engine? It has a very weird kink at about 4K and does not tail off - very different to the 350 and 400.
Interesting re power curve - 35 450SE's built I believe plus the 450 SEAC's so not quite as rare as that.
19560 said:
As you describe the engine I would guess at 350 TVRBHP or 300 on most other scales at the fly wheel or 255 at the wheels. Otherwise known as very fast.
325 TVRbhp may be right
and on occasion it feels like maybe 230 at the wheels and very fast but other times not so. Mind you this is Oz where the base model company car has a 240 bhp V6. Wedgeman - thanks also - will check this out.
>> Edited by chunder on Thursday 19th August 12:53
chunder said:
Twin fans, adjustable switch, relocated oil cooler, modified rad, DIY front undertray and rad sealed around the edge - temp now comes down when moving. Plenum insulator, insulated intake pipes, relocated AFM - filter and header tank and cold air box with scoop feed currently under construction.
All sounds very good.
chunder said:
The standard air flow meter for the 450 is a Rover one; people fitted the Jag one after market to increase the air flow - if your ecu has not been adjusted for this I wonder whether this could be part (hopefully all??) of your problem.
This would be a big part but what's the best way of curing it?
Sorry, as I mentioned I'm no good with electrics or electronics.
chunder said:
Interesting re power curve - 35 450SE's built I believe plus the 450 SEAC's so not quite as rare as that.
Yes; I think that I got the 450SE and 450SEAC production numbers all muddled up.
chunder said:
As you describe the engine I would guess at 350 TVRBHP or 300 on most other scales at the fly wheel or 255 at the wheels. Otherwise known as very fast.
325 TVRbhp may be right
I was working on the 325 (or was it 324?) official figure and adding 8% (nominally) for the P404 cam, and other engine mods that you hinted at.
Hope that you are able to make some progress on this.
dickymint said:
I thought the SEAC's were fitted with the Jag AFM and i am pretty sure that all Wedges have the same "bog standard" ECU......but then again i'm often wrong
Does anyone know whether this is the case ? I would have thought that TVR would have tailored the ECU at least for each engine size - was the ECU set up the same from the factory for the 350 through to the 450 ?
Surely TVR would have had to reprogram fuelling to get near the claimed outputs for the larger engines. If not then maybe there are significant gains to be had.
Anyone got any experience of the Megasquirt ECU - fully re-programmable and only 150 US although you have to build it yourself from a component kit.
Is the Tornado chip the cheapest solution - has anyone purchased one of these and had them set up by someone other than Mark Adams ?
Chunder:
At the moment I have only had chance to compare the ECUs from a couple of 350s with that from my 390SE.
Fundamemtally they are identical: there's no add-on circuitry on the 390 (although I have seen some with an externally-adjustable pot for added enrichment - or so I'm told).
On the PCBs of the Lucas ECU there are a number of resistors that can be changed to fine-tune the response of parts of the circuitry: almost all of these resistors are different in the ECUs I've compared, even between 350s. Also, it doesn't look to me as though any of the resistors were changed after manufacture (you can tell by the soldering and the lacquer that the boards are sprayed with)... so I can only presume that each board was 'optimised' in some way, but not necessarily for a specific capacity engine. It may be just that the ICs used had tolerances like a barn door and the resistors were there to compensate...
I have circuit diagrams for the Lucas ECU, but apart from helping to trace power supply rails, they aren't a lot of use as most of the nitty-gritty is down to the two dedicated ICs... that you can't get from anywhere!
Ian
At the moment I have only had chance to compare the ECUs from a couple of 350s with that from my 390SE.
Fundamemtally they are identical: there's no add-on circuitry on the 390 (although I have seen some with an externally-adjustable pot for added enrichment - or so I'm told).
On the PCBs of the Lucas ECU there are a number of resistors that can be changed to fine-tune the response of parts of the circuitry: almost all of these resistors are different in the ECUs I've compared, even between 350s. Also, it doesn't look to me as though any of the resistors were changed after manufacture (you can tell by the soldering and the lacquer that the boards are sprayed with)... so I can only presume that each board was 'optimised' in some way, but not necessarily for a specific capacity engine. It may be just that the ICs used had tolerances like a barn door and the resistors were there to compensate...
I have circuit diagrams for the Lucas ECU, but apart from helping to trace power supply rails, they aren't a lot of use as most of the nitty-gritty is down to the two dedicated ICs... that you can't get from anywhere!
Ian
I know this might seem a bit simple, but the first thing I would do is go through the fuel injection wiring and check it is OK, why? Well Tallbloke came to me with his 350i which was down on power and wouldn't pull properly at the 'bottom end' after talking about what expensive thing might be the problem I first checked the wiring (after a little research - knew where to look) and found one of the pins in the air flow meter was pushed back in its 'plug' i.e.not connecting properly. After adjusting the 'tangs' on the terminal (so it would stay in the block connector in the right place) and pushing it back so it mounted right in the 'block' we went for a drive. Instant bottom end power and more torque through the range!. This might not be your problem, but it goes to show that a little patience looking at the basics can save you a lot of money, by checking your wiring is doing what it should be in the first place. If this is wrong you can chuck a lot of money at it and still have the same basic problem IMHO, hope this is of help, Mr Scott
>> Edited by mr-scott on Friday 20th August 02:45
>> Edited by mr-scott on Friday 20th August 02:50
chunder said:
Without going into great detail I have a car I believe is probably well down on power and not for any mechanical / wear or basic tuning related reasons.
The engine is not completely standard although I believe the ECU probably is.
I know the stock answer would be to book a RR and arrange for Mark Adams to set up the fuelling correctly but as I am in Australia his travel costs are going to make it a bit pricey.
Am I correct in assuming I have the following three options -
1. Replace the ECU with an after market programmable system (and does anyone have any experience of doing this on a limited budget - Motec ?).
2. Purchase a Mark Adams adjustable Tornado chip to allow the RR techs here to set it up (again does anyone have any experience of this on a wedge).
3. Get someone to hack the software off Marks laptop.
Otherwise aside from better timing and basic mixture adjustment and possibly fiddling with AFM outputs I imagine all a RR session would do is give me a pretty depressing graph to look at.
Any advice would be appreciated (esp. from MA).
>> Edited by mr-scott on Friday 20th August 02:45
>> Edited by mr-scott on Friday 20th August 02:50
I think that most (if not all) 450SEs were quite late in the wedge build - certainly 1989 is and the hot wire had been introduced by then. Is this really the same ecu? As I understand it above 6000 revs there was no real mapping on the hot wire system because the air used to bounce? and mess up the AFM readings.
Also IIRC the 350 has the Rover SD1 Vitesse injectors whereas the other (larger) V8s had larger injectors. Is it possible that this was the only way used to tune the 390? (Please help me here Wedg1e.)
Also IIRC the 350 has the Rover SD1 Vitesse injectors whereas the other (larger) V8s had larger injectors. Is it possible that this was the only way used to tune the 390? (Please help me here Wedg1e.)
Hey Wedg1e - don't suppose you could send me a copy of those schematics?
Incidentally I have a spare ECU here at home, if anyone is having problems they can borrow it from me to rule it out/confirm that it's the problem.
I'm also going to wire up a diagnostic port to it so you can monitor all the voltages etc on the multiplug from the comfort of the cabin.
You too can try twiddling the timebase on a scope when you're doing 110 in 4th up the motorway....
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