Discussion
just a quick post to say a big big thx to russ at midlands car care, he had my 996tt lapis blue in for a enhancement last tuesday , WOW wat a job , cant recommend the guy enough , he was due to have it for a day & half but kept it for an xtra day bcoz he wanted to get her looking her best , i provided him with gtechnic crystal laquer to use , but got a mail advising against it becoz it wud show the imperfections more bein optical , i went with his advice & he used swissvax best (at no xtra cost )7 hav to say the results are amazing , the guy is passionate about his work so anyone in the west midlands (j 10) area , i would highly recommend you giv him a try , costs arent astromonical either ,
thx wolfie
thx wolfie
Always good to hear recommendations, but let me just get something straight....
He turned down GTechniq claiming it would 'show up' imperfections, and opted to use a wax (full of fillers which would hide them instead). That sounds, if I'm honest, lazy? Just me? The point being that properly corrected paintwork covered in GTechniq should remain lovely to look at, whereas non-properly corrected paintwork covered in a wax will look good for a few weeks until the fillers are all washed out and you're back basically to square one.
He turned down GTechniq claiming it would 'show up' imperfections, and opted to use a wax (full of fillers which would hide them instead). That sounds, if I'm honest, lazy? Just me? The point being that properly corrected paintwork covered in GTechniq should remain lovely to look at, whereas non-properly corrected paintwork covered in a wax will look good for a few weeks until the fillers are all washed out and you're back basically to square one.
point taken ... but why would he ask to keep the car for an extra day ,? also why turn down the gtechic which was free (provided by me )& use his stuff which i presume isnt cheap,, i was told the paint around the stone chips was very thin so he wanted to go "softly softly" with it , car will be having the front end done soon so time for gteech then mayb ?
911 wolfie said:
point taken ... but why would he ask to keep the car for an extra day ,? also why turn down the gtechic which was free (provided by me )& use his stuff which i presume isnt cheap,, i was told the paint around the stone chips was very thin so he wanted to go "softly softly" with it , car will be having the front end done soon so time for gteech then maybe ?
Well, playing devil's advocate: using waxes full of fillers to mask unacceptable correction, no matter what wax, is less expensive than a customer rejecting the job on collection. Then, when you wash out the fillers, he can blame you for the swirls that magically appear (re-appear).I don't know the detailer in question, or anything about him. I'm just saying what I see from the viewpoint of a complete cynic (I do have some detailing experience/background).
Post respray protection is a nice idea, but please don't take it for granted that paint shops will give you swirl-free perfect paintwork; in fact, this is very rarely the case.
911 wolfie said:
also why turn down the gtechic which was free (provided by me )& use his stuff which i presume isnt cheap,, i was told the paint around the stone chips was very thin so he wanted to go "softly softly" with it
firstly paint around paint chips is the same depth as over the whole panel. secondly gtechniq C1 £42 per one car application .
http://www.shinearama.co.uk/product.php?id=GTE-C1-...
or best of show £195 per pot (40 applications per pot) £4.85 per car application.
http://www.shinearama.co.uk/product.php?id=SWI-BOS
Gtechniq will not as told to you be detailer hide any defects NOT remove fully and needs perfect paint finish for best results.
The fact that you have to wipe down the paint finish with panel wipe or something similar for gtechniq to bond properly puts of a lot of detailers on a budget or time scale as this will remove all the cutting oils from the paint correction process.
But Best of show is what it says its a very good SHOW wax to give massive improvement to the look of the paint which WILL ware down very quickly compared to products such as Gtechniq's C1 .
It as long as the customer understands are they getting FULL paint correction for the money and time , or part correction and masking filling with glazes , and waxes.
The use of a show wax can take of around a third of the total time off machine correction for what looks likes the same finish on collection of car.
one WILL last much longer than the other.
HTH Kelly
Adam thanks for the kind words. To prove that you haven't been 'deceived' as is being implied above, I'll take your car back in for free, we'll wipe it down with panel wipes and apply a sealant like Zaino which is a bit more durable than BOS (doesn't look quite so good though IMO) but as its not a coating, we're not 'locking' anything in.
Within the budget and timescales and the restrictions of the clearcoat present we decided not to chase after EVERY last defect and then effectively seal these in with C1 (which as mentioned here was 'free' as the customer provided it). Instead we opted (as agreed with the customer) to finish with a wax - this was not to 'hide' any defects at all but purely for the reasons explained above. Are you suggesting that applying a ceramic coating to a paint with deeper defects in is a good idea? I'd certainly strongly disagree, but then I'm not 'sponsored' by GTechniq am I..?
Within the budget and timescales and the restrictions of the clearcoat present we decided not to chase after EVERY last defect and then effectively seal these in with C1 (which as mentioned here was 'free' as the customer provided it). Instead we opted (as agreed with the customer) to finish with a wax - this was not to 'hide' any defects at all but purely for the reasons explained above. Are you suggesting that applying a ceramic coating to a paint with deeper defects in is a good idea? I'd certainly strongly disagree, but then I'm not 'sponsored' by GTechniq am I..?
I think Russ / MCC have done a great job on that car, I read the full write-up on DW and there's no hiding anything with what was achieved. I've never known a Wax to "fill" or cover up any swirls / damage either, I understand they can add that ultra wet look but they don't really hide any imperfections.
I doubt for one minute the car was booked in (or paid out) to have a full correction detail as in the time given that surely wouldn't be possible anyway, and as Russ said doing a 90% correction then covering it in a coating like C1 would not be a good plan anyway as whatever damage is there is now going to be locked in for 12+ months (or however long Gtechniq claim it will last)?
I doubt for one minute the car was booked in (or paid out) to have a full correction detail as in the time given that surely wouldn't be possible anyway, and as Russ said doing a 90% correction then covering it in a coating like C1 would not be a good plan anyway as whatever damage is there is now going to be locked in for 12+ months (or however long Gtechniq claim it will last)?
RussZS said:
Adam thanks for the kind words. To prove that you haven't been 'deceived' as is being implied above, I'll take your car back in for free, we'll wipe it down with panel wipes and apply a sealant like Zaino which is a bit more durable than BOS (doesn't look quite so good though IMO) but as its not a coating, we're not 'locking' anything in.
Within the budget and timescales and the restrictions of the clearcoat present we decided not to chase after EVERY last defect and then effectively seal these in with C1 (which as mentioned here was 'free' as the customer provided it). Instead we opted (as agreed with the customer) to finish with a wax - this was not to 'hide' any defects at all but purely for the reasons explained above. Are you suggesting that applying a ceramic coating to a paint with deeper defects in is a good idea? I'd certainly strongly disagree, but then I'm not 'sponsored' by GTechniq am I..?
Russ , i was stating that the Gtechniq compared to wax and how different they are and why . Within the budget and timescales and the restrictions of the clearcoat present we decided not to chase after EVERY last defect and then effectively seal these in with C1 (which as mentioned here was 'free' as the customer provided it). Instead we opted (as agreed with the customer) to finish with a wax - this was not to 'hide' any defects at all but purely for the reasons explained above. Are you suggesting that applying a ceramic coating to a paint with deeper defects in is a good idea? I'd certainly strongly disagree, but then I'm not 'sponsored' by GTechniq am I..?
Thats all, and the customer thought that a wax is better / more expensive option either miss selling / miss understanding or clever marketing of the wax company in question to make it seem like the ultimate option.
I also sell as an upgrade the same waxes and higher up the scale , but i let the customer know exactly whats what , which is why 95% of the time they choose Gtechniq for its long lasting durability , and not the wax due to its temporary looks.
As for the silly comment about being sponsored you know dam well that i am not from the chats in the past and while you were being trained by me over the 3 days this year we spoke about products in great length.
In fact again as you know i actually pay to be part of the gtechniq network as i believe in the properties of their products.
The same could be said about Auto Finesse products that you push a lot , i have never had meals with gtechniq or the owner of gtechniq , but you have many meals and drinks with Auto Finesse and the owner too and you publish the fact when you can, this does not make you or the products better or worse , so who is really being sponsored ??
In Fact i have had nights out and meals with Dodo juice and Dom the owner came to me birthday party last year, he travelled a great distance to bring my present and card.
I must be sponsored by dodo juice then ?
Show me the treads where i apply dodo waxes over cars ?
Russ word of warning i woke up to a few texts saying that you have attacked a thread of mine on another forum , then retracted it (not had chance to view it yet) same goes for this tread i had email link to this thread from other detailers of you comments.
For someone that been in the trade part time for not yet a year to be then attacking the person who trained you and who knows your flaws is a very brave or stupid thing to do.
You have posted that your offering training to public when not many months ago you asked me for more training on the very same subject.
The saying be nice on the way up goes along way you know
From what i can tell you have just attacked someone that could give you so much business advice like you asked by text a few times from me and i guess that means you know everything there is to know and dont need it anymore.
I will stick my neck out on the chopping block and say , due to having staff (5 staff including me) we get through 50-75% more cars and services per week than any other company (detailing) , but remembering that we offer in house full paint work , servicing , mechanical , modifying , wheels at lepsons , the combined time served in these trades is now over 40 years , and include my father next door his been in the trade for 40+years , this counts for a lot and we get to see and deal with every type of job IN HOUSE not subbed out from a £500 car to a 1.5 million of cars left with KDS.
And the reason i guess you choose me to do your training in the first place.
This has not come about by being smart or rude to other companys , clever marketing ,being on 50 + forums pushing their work , undercutting prices etc.
kelly
Wow that got out of hand fast!!
Kelly just for the record, I've only ever heard Russ praise you and in his words your "God like Detailing skills", I really don't think he would outright attack you - I'm sure he didn't mean it to come across like that, it just seemed he was having to defend his decision not to put C1 over a non-perfect car.
Kelly just for the record, I've only ever heard Russ praise you and in his words your "God like Detailing skills", I really don't think he would outright attack you - I'm sure he didn't mean it to come across like that, it just seemed he was having to defend his decision not to put C1 over a non-perfect car.
RussZS said:
Russ , i was never questioning your work as said above , in fact would be really silly of me to make you look bad as then it would not be the best advert for my training? But i could take a photo and post it and without actual proof of panel wipe downs and bare paint how could anyone tell if its perfect paint or full of fillers.
Even panel wipe does not remove ALL fillers and found the only product to truly remove ALL fillers is standard thinners , but i would not want to use this on a customers car, so even when KDS detail a car we would still have a slight filling effect after wipe down with panel wipe or IPA , BUT an adjustment to the machine correction (mainly time at least another 25% correction on each stage and change of technique can stop this)but of course comes at a cost.
more importantly is knowing the above and how to achieve it.
Here is what a wax can do WITHOUT any machine correction.
All i am trying to do is let the public and customers know the difference between full correction and correction/masked detail work .
85% of my customers choose correction with masked work , it would be roughly 80-90% correction and 20-10% filling and masking.
This is due to costs involved.
we do offer completely 100% correction and comes at much higher costs , and only a 5% would choose this.
I am doing my best to put across the difference.
kelly
nickg123 said:
Wow that got out of hand fast!!
Kelly just for the record, I've only ever heard Russ praise you and in his words your "God like Detailing skills", I really don't think he would outright attack you - I'm sure he didn't mean it to come across like that, it just seemed he was having to defend his decision not to put C1 over a non-perfect car.
Hey i am sure the customer is happy with the out come and the car looks great too Kelly just for the record, I've only ever heard Russ praise you and in his words your "God like Detailing skills", I really don't think he would outright attack you - I'm sure he didn't mean it to come across like that, it just seemed he was having to defend his decision not to put C1 over a non-perfect car.
in a nut shell thats all that matters.
I write things on forums well the 2 I am on DW and PH in a style thats very open and for the members to view and read in a way thats done so that the guys that are on forums learning will learn , and the public that want their cars worked on understand to get the best from who ever they use.
I do know of a few members that have met me and said from my posts have learnt a lot about detailing and wet sanding.
Being in the position i am now i do seem to get a lot of scandal rumours ,most of which i just turn a blind eye too , this happened while training russ , he got twitter comments from fellow detailers saying that i have no REAL knowledge, i was the one who told Russ to ignore them and get back onto training , its like the detailing Paparazzi.
Its more that guys while climbing the ladder should put the efforts into making their business better instead of making other business trying to look worse.
I think the word Respect comes to mind too.
I find it a little strange that guys and companys fight over detailing work when there are more cars in the country that ALL the detailers could cope with per year, so plenty of potential customers.
kelly
Edited by kds keltec on Tuesday 11th September 11:00
hi all
just to say the car wasnt booked in for full 100% correction ,as ikno this would be nigh on impossible given timescale &budget, i just wanted it too look the best russ could get it ,i was given the gtechnic by the former owner when i brought the car so pressumably thats what he`d used on the car previously .
the car will be having some paint sometime soon i hope so mayb the bos was a better option then the techniq ??
as for calling russ lazy i cant understand that comment at all because as mentioned in my previous post he actually had the car a day longer than was originally planned !!
im chuffed to bits with the finish on the car ,its not 100% as i knew it wouldnt be , but to my untrained eye it looks grt & wouldnt hesitate in using mcc again
thx adam
just to say the car wasnt booked in for full 100% correction ,as ikno this would be nigh on impossible given timescale &budget, i just wanted it too look the best russ could get it ,i was given the gtechnic by the former owner when i brought the car so pressumably thats what he`d used on the car previously .
the car will be having some paint sometime soon i hope so mayb the bos was a better option then the techniq ??
as for calling russ lazy i cant understand that comment at all because as mentioned in my previous post he actually had the car a day longer than was originally planned !!
im chuffed to bits with the finish on the car ,its not 100% as i knew it wouldnt be , but to my untrained eye it looks grt & wouldnt hesitate in using mcc again
thx adam
kds keltec said:
Russ , i was never questioning your work as said above , in fact would be really silly of me to make you look bad as then it would not be the best advert for my training?
But i could take a photo and post it and without actual proof of panel wipe downs and bare paint how could anyone tell if its perfect paint or full of fillers.
Even panel wipe does not remove ALL fillers and found the only product to truly remove ALL fillers is standard thinners , but i would not want to use this on a customers car, so even when KDS detail a car we would still have a slight filling effect after wipe down with panel wipe or IPA , BUT an adjustment to the machine correction (mainly time at least another 25% correction on each stage and change of technique can stop this)but of course comes at a cost.
more importantly is knowing the above and how to achieve it.
Here is what a wax can do WITHOUT any machine correction.
All i am trying to do is let the public and customers know the difference between full correction and correction/masked detail work .
85% of my customers choose correction with masked work , it would be roughly 80-90% correction and 20-10% filling and masking.
This is due to costs involved.
we do offer completely 100% correction and comes at much higher costs , and only a 5% would choose this.
I am doing my best to put across the difference.
kelly
What do you use in the pics?But i could take a photo and post it and without actual proof of panel wipe downs and bare paint how could anyone tell if its perfect paint or full of fillers.
Even panel wipe does not remove ALL fillers and found the only product to truly remove ALL fillers is standard thinners , but i would not want to use this on a customers car, so even when KDS detail a car we would still have a slight filling effect after wipe down with panel wipe or IPA , BUT an adjustment to the machine correction (mainly time at least another 25% correction on each stage and change of technique can stop this)but of course comes at a cost.
more importantly is knowing the above and how to achieve it.
Here is what a wax can do WITHOUT any machine correction.
All i am trying to do is let the public and customers know the difference between full correction and correction/masked detail work .
85% of my customers choose correction with masked work , it would be roughly 80-90% correction and 20-10% filling and masking.
This is due to costs involved.
we do offer completely 100% correction and comes at much higher costs , and only a 5% would choose this.
I am doing my best to put across the difference.
kelly
You post it quite often but never actually say what it is.
(Carlack?)
iwanna said:
What do you use in the pics?
You post it quite often but never actually say what it is.
(Carlack?)
I am sure that most of the time i have posted it , You post it quite often but never actually say what it is.
(Carlack?)
Its Bilt hamber Auto-balm ,
thing is strangely i still have the same pot from years ago as i dont ever use it on our correction detail packages , this car was in for valet stage 4 package (highest valet we offer before detailing packages) that includes a wax at the end of the process so i decided it would be the best option in this case.
we carry out around 8 such valets per year compared to 200 + correction details.
on correction details we use what ever the wax or sealent the customer has chosen or we recommend .
HTH kelly
Gassing Station | Bodywork & Detailing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff