Porsche and the haters that go with... why the beef?
Discussion
This is going to be a long one...
I'm not really one to start topics or, for that matter, enter into rants/arguments in the comments sections. BUT, recently I have been so amazed at the 'views' and 'opinions' of my fellow PHers that I wanted to get it off my chest...
I am very fortunate to be able to indulge my passion for cars. I wouldn't say that I have a preference for a type, model, or brand of vehicle and I have and also have had ownership of a diverse range of machines. This is does not give me any right above anyone to make comment or judgement, but I wanted to give some credence to my feelings. I tend to stay away from all the type clubs (Ferrari, Porsche, etc...) as these can be rather biased and skewed that you are not sure if what you read/hear is just hyperbole. PistonHeads has been a rather welcome relief as passion for machines of all ranges, prices, abilites, etc. comes together with a tolerance that is second to none. Until recently (for me anyway!).
The straw that broke the camels back was really the response to the Diesel Panamera review by Chris Harris. There was a small, but vocal section, that in my mind totally lacked the spirit of the community. Firstly the blatant attack on his integrity, and secondly the immediate dismissal of a Diesel Porsche being any good and that Porsche is now a bygone company that once produced great, great cars, with only compromised mass market products that are good only for the bean counters and stock holders who are chasing end of year results.
I'm not going to go on about Chris Harris because I don't know the guy, but if those serious and potentially actionable accusations were levelled at me and (from what I can see) no evidence being presented apart from a dislike of his style and preference of cars, it would start me thinking...
I have noticed over the years how reaction to reviews have changed. I don't know if it is the dumbing down, tipified by todays Topgear and the obvious audience that follow that show religiously, or the uninformed and overtly aggressive comments that seem to be more than just a rare occurance. It could be that the words that come out of the mouths of the reporters and reviewers are held at such high regard now, they replace the good old test drive and 'make you own mind up' mentality.
I have seen this first hand on so many occasions. Bloke A and Bloke B are sitting having a drink, car drives by and A says to B "Wouldn't buy that", B says to A "Why not", A says back "Evo/Topgear/etc didn't really rate it"...
Its not wrong to have an opinion. But to have a totally uninformed opinion based on what others say is quite something else. The amount of regurgitated Clarkson I read and hear is shocking and a lot of the time the people passing judgment haven't even seen the car in the metal let alone driven it. Thankfully, this is not very common, but the 'I can imagine it is...' comments are becoming more prevalent.
Which brings me to the Porsche debate...
I buy cars because they make me feel good. Some of the cars I have owned have been controversial at best and I have turned down the opportunity to buy cars that most would consider to be best ever made, top rated cars. I have done this because I buy what I think is good for me. Not what an army of road testers or public opinion decrees to be top of the pile. Not because of how something drifts around a corner. Not because it is the fastest thing around a certiain German ring road... Now, a manufacturer that keeps coming back into my garage is Porsche. I can't think of another manufacturer that has put out consistently good, well engineered, cars that go so well. You could almost say that they have got so good at this it is a little bit boring.
Spotting a bad Porsche is like playing Where's Wally? and for me Wally is sitting in the Targa. The most un-Porsche Porsche in my mind. This is going to get the Cayenne/Panamera/Cabriolet crew going, let battle commence...!
I really enjoy the hunt when it comes to acquiring cars, and the weekend loan from many a manufacturer is something that makes life brilliant. The reason one of their product line up is usually the bench mark for the segment is because it is a seriously sorted piece of kit. The new 991 is the 'weakest' link in the family, it didn't really move the game along that much more than the previous generations did in terms of dynamics, but this new platform has a few years and generations to evolve into a really good car. Now, having said that, there is not a rival in sight that can really fill the gap that I was looking the 991 to fill. It is still better than most of what is out there, just not as good as it should and could be. Anyway that is a whole other topic...
Back to my rambling... Porsches are hated and loved in equal measure. For me it is the go to brand if you want a great drive on any given day. Not because the reviews say so, not because it is the lazy choice, but becauce (in my opinion) they drive so well EVERYDAY. You can feel when cars try to beat Porsche at their own game (GTR, R8 - which is such a sorted bit a kit and I think drives on the road better than a 911, but the size of the thing makes it so unwieldly on most fun roads and kills it for me, etc) and this just makes the case for Porsches so compelling. Porsches are not good looking by any stretch of the imagination (bar the new Boxter) they are what they are. They have girl next door looks, but get them in the bedroom... The only thing that is seriously lacking for me is the sense of occasion. Walking towards a Porsche to get in and drive away is too similar to doing the same with a cooking version of a normal car. Walk towards a Ferrari, Lambo, et al and you tingle all over. You also know that when you arrive at your destination who is going to look at you and also HOW they are going to look at you depending on the car you step out of. This is important to the market, and in some ways I'm glad Porsche have not fallen into that trap.
But the thing that really hits home is the journey. And that is what Porsche do so very well. Any given day, time, condition and it will never let you down. Now, the vast majority of the competition can't claim the same.
At the moment I am in love with 2 AMG's and an Italian. But if I want to drive my favorite road with the biggest smile, the RS keys are never too far away.
I wait to be shot down with cynical comments laced with venom, but to be honest I'll just go out for a good drive to remind me why I keep visiting this site...
I'm not really one to start topics or, for that matter, enter into rants/arguments in the comments sections. BUT, recently I have been so amazed at the 'views' and 'opinions' of my fellow PHers that I wanted to get it off my chest...
I am very fortunate to be able to indulge my passion for cars. I wouldn't say that I have a preference for a type, model, or brand of vehicle and I have and also have had ownership of a diverse range of machines. This is does not give me any right above anyone to make comment or judgement, but I wanted to give some credence to my feelings. I tend to stay away from all the type clubs (Ferrari, Porsche, etc...) as these can be rather biased and skewed that you are not sure if what you read/hear is just hyperbole. PistonHeads has been a rather welcome relief as passion for machines of all ranges, prices, abilites, etc. comes together with a tolerance that is second to none. Until recently (for me anyway!).
The straw that broke the camels back was really the response to the Diesel Panamera review by Chris Harris. There was a small, but vocal section, that in my mind totally lacked the spirit of the community. Firstly the blatant attack on his integrity, and secondly the immediate dismissal of a Diesel Porsche being any good and that Porsche is now a bygone company that once produced great, great cars, with only compromised mass market products that are good only for the bean counters and stock holders who are chasing end of year results.
I'm not going to go on about Chris Harris because I don't know the guy, but if those serious and potentially actionable accusations were levelled at me and (from what I can see) no evidence being presented apart from a dislike of his style and preference of cars, it would start me thinking...
I have noticed over the years how reaction to reviews have changed. I don't know if it is the dumbing down, tipified by todays Topgear and the obvious audience that follow that show religiously, or the uninformed and overtly aggressive comments that seem to be more than just a rare occurance. It could be that the words that come out of the mouths of the reporters and reviewers are held at such high regard now, they replace the good old test drive and 'make you own mind up' mentality.
I have seen this first hand on so many occasions. Bloke A and Bloke B are sitting having a drink, car drives by and A says to B "Wouldn't buy that", B says to A "Why not", A says back "Evo/Topgear/etc didn't really rate it"...
Its not wrong to have an opinion. But to have a totally uninformed opinion based on what others say is quite something else. The amount of regurgitated Clarkson I read and hear is shocking and a lot of the time the people passing judgment haven't even seen the car in the metal let alone driven it. Thankfully, this is not very common, but the 'I can imagine it is...' comments are becoming more prevalent.
Which brings me to the Porsche debate...
I buy cars because they make me feel good. Some of the cars I have owned have been controversial at best and I have turned down the opportunity to buy cars that most would consider to be best ever made, top rated cars. I have done this because I buy what I think is good for me. Not what an army of road testers or public opinion decrees to be top of the pile. Not because of how something drifts around a corner. Not because it is the fastest thing around a certiain German ring road... Now, a manufacturer that keeps coming back into my garage is Porsche. I can't think of another manufacturer that has put out consistently good, well engineered, cars that go so well. You could almost say that they have got so good at this it is a little bit boring.
Spotting a bad Porsche is like playing Where's Wally? and for me Wally is sitting in the Targa. The most un-Porsche Porsche in my mind. This is going to get the Cayenne/Panamera/Cabriolet crew going, let battle commence...!
I really enjoy the hunt when it comes to acquiring cars, and the weekend loan from many a manufacturer is something that makes life brilliant. The reason one of their product line up is usually the bench mark for the segment is because it is a seriously sorted piece of kit. The new 991 is the 'weakest' link in the family, it didn't really move the game along that much more than the previous generations did in terms of dynamics, but this new platform has a few years and generations to evolve into a really good car. Now, having said that, there is not a rival in sight that can really fill the gap that I was looking the 991 to fill. It is still better than most of what is out there, just not as good as it should and could be. Anyway that is a whole other topic...
Back to my rambling... Porsches are hated and loved in equal measure. For me it is the go to brand if you want a great drive on any given day. Not because the reviews say so, not because it is the lazy choice, but becauce (in my opinion) they drive so well EVERYDAY. You can feel when cars try to beat Porsche at their own game (GTR, R8 - which is such a sorted bit a kit and I think drives on the road better than a 911, but the size of the thing makes it so unwieldly on most fun roads and kills it for me, etc) and this just makes the case for Porsches so compelling. Porsches are not good looking by any stretch of the imagination (bar the new Boxter) they are what they are. They have girl next door looks, but get them in the bedroom... The only thing that is seriously lacking for me is the sense of occasion. Walking towards a Porsche to get in and drive away is too similar to doing the same with a cooking version of a normal car. Walk towards a Ferrari, Lambo, et al and you tingle all over. You also know that when you arrive at your destination who is going to look at you and also HOW they are going to look at you depending on the car you step out of. This is important to the market, and in some ways I'm glad Porsche have not fallen into that trap.
But the thing that really hits home is the journey. And that is what Porsche do so very well. Any given day, time, condition and it will never let you down. Now, the vast majority of the competition can't claim the same.
At the moment I am in love with 2 AMG's and an Italian. But if I want to drive my favorite road with the biggest smile, the RS keys are never too far away.
I wait to be shot down with cynical comments laced with venom, but to be honest I'll just go out for a good drive to remind me why I keep visiting this site...
Good post but stop going on about the Chris Harris troll thing its making PH turn into a playground. And the whole thing of if you say bad things i'll sure just sounds so patheticaly american it's unreal.
I've never driven a porsche but my Dad has when he was thinking of a new car. He had a go in the previous generation of 911 C2S and C4S at the centre in Silverstone and while they were good drives he felt they weren't quick enough to justify the price tag so got an RS5 because it can do everything he needs, cruise about being lazy or grab your ballsack and twist it.
I'll wait till i drive one to decide but i'd never not buy a car because TopGear told me not to. It's like people saying cocks all drive Audi's now, no they don't. Just because Audi has become more popular and therefore there is a greater risk of knobs in them it doesn't mean you won't find one in a Micra, BMW, Mondeo, Volvo, Picasso etc.
I've never driven a porsche but my Dad has when he was thinking of a new car. He had a go in the previous generation of 911 C2S and C4S at the centre in Silverstone and while they were good drives he felt they weren't quick enough to justify the price tag so got an RS5 because it can do everything he needs, cruise about being lazy or grab your ballsack and twist it.
I'll wait till i drive one to decide but i'd never not buy a car because TopGear told me not to. It's like people saying cocks all drive Audi's now, no they don't. Just because Audi has become more popular and therefore there is a greater risk of knobs in them it doesn't mean you won't find one in a Micra, BMW, Mondeo, Volvo, Picasso etc.
Who really cares about other people's opinions though? Really?
I don't think anyone truly pays much attention to anyone's opinions if theirs is already formed.
I know this because I like all sorts of cars based mainly on how they look so despite knowing there are many cars out there which are great to drive, I can still reserve a little bile for the styling - so Panameras and Mini Countrymans and many BMW models are pretty much fair game simply because I can't comprehend why anyone would want to look at one - it's a simple test for me.
However, I don't have any issues with others holding an opinion either, let's face it with 2 Corvettes, 2 Camaros and a Mustang behind me, you generally have to have a thick skin.
But I buy cars for me, no-one else.
I don't think anyone truly pays much attention to anyone's opinions if theirs is already formed.
I know this because I like all sorts of cars based mainly on how they look so despite knowing there are many cars out there which are great to drive, I can still reserve a little bile for the styling - so Panameras and Mini Countrymans and many BMW models are pretty much fair game simply because I can't comprehend why anyone would want to look at one - it's a simple test for me.
However, I don't have any issues with others holding an opinion either, let's face it with 2 Corvettes, 2 Camaros and a Mustang behind me, you generally have to have a thick skin.
But I buy cars for me, no-one else.
I've never really noticed anyone on here who seems to hate Porsches. Plenty of people (including me) don't particularly like them, but there's nothing wrong with that.
To my mind, anyone who genuinely hates any car isn't a true motoring enthusiast.
To my mind, anyone who genuinely hates any car isn't a true motoring enthusiast.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 15th September 15:05
The world is full of 
s and as such some will appear in here. Battle with them or ignore is your choice. Re the 911, I've always wanted one. Got a simple C2 now albeit hope to get in to a GT3 eventually ... Should deliver the sense of occasion allegedly missing according to the OP!
TX.
s and as such some will appear in here. Battle with them or ignore is your choice. Re the 911, I've always wanted one. Got a simple C2 now albeit hope to get in to a GT3 eventually ... Should deliver the sense of occasion allegedly missing according to the OP!TX.
I really secretly fancy a 997 Turbo cabriolet . Does anyone else think they better than the tin top with the roof up?
My only gripe would be the comments if i did purchase one , such as , hairdresser , too wobbly and not the real mans Porsche.
I know that i shouldn't be swayed but i can't help it.
My only gripe would be the comments if i did purchase one , such as , hairdresser , too wobbly and not the real mans Porsche.
I know that i shouldn't be swayed but i can't help it.
traffman said:
I really secretly fancy a 997 Turbo cabriolet . Does anyone else think they better than the tin top with the roof up?
My only gripe would be the comments if i did purchase one , such as , hairdresser , too wobbly and not the real mans Porsche.
I know that i shouldn't be swayed but i can't help it.
A few years ago when I was chuffed to bits having just driven home in my 'new' toy, I took a picture on the gravel, posing in front of the roses etc etc... Chuffed to bits, Isent it to a mate who I knew was changing his car and a bit of a petrolhead!My only gripe would be the comments if i did purchase one , such as , hairdresser , too wobbly and not the real mans Porsche.
I know that i shouldn't be swayed but i can't help it.
Bastid doesnt even comment on mine; guess what he sent back?
.
.
.
.
.
A picture of his 'new' identical 911 but a Turbo cab (X50) and the phrase 'read it and weep'.... He absolutely loved it! Fastest think with the roof down I have ever been in! (Until he got his R8 rag top - yes, the V10 one!)
Utter w
ker 
And a bloddy nice bloke as well! G1t
Havent been in a 997 Turbo cab but if the 996 Turbo Cab was great; I would only warn against driving one - who cares if I cut hair? (I dont BTW)
ENjoy for you!
Raize said:
TBH, if I had the money and the inclination to buy a modern supercar, only the Nissan GTR might keep me away from a 911.
This, and even then, when it came to signing the papers, I would regret not buying the other, whichever way I decided to go. I've always been a Porsche fan though.
I've looked into Boxster ownership, would love a Panamera, and drove past a surprisingly cheap Cayenne last night and am thinking about seeing what's wrong with it.
But that Nissan...
Lordglenmorangie said:
I got to line three of this post 
then went for a drink 
Same here, but with regards to Porsche not being what they used to be I just don't think they are. Some of the quality in both design & engineering is shockingly poor. then went for a drink That's not to say I don't think some of their modern stuff isn't great (some of it is) but some of it is downright shoddy & has been for some time.
I'm not an air cooled fantasist where any Porsche worth it's salt needs only air & oil, but things were in my opinion, better back then.
Plus, this is a forum, where folks get together to discuss stuff.
If we all had the same opinion it wouldn't be much of a read would it?
I interesting read from someone who can actually string more than a couple of sentences together... Most Excellent.
I've been irritated by TopGear for at least the last two series (though still watch it!). I couldn't quite identify what was wrong with it until I got to school (I'm a teacher) one Monday, after a particularly crap episode and most of the 11/12 year old boys were raving about it. At that point I realised it wasn't made for 40+, balding, car enthusiasts.
The ironic thing is that I brought a Porsche, a car make that until that point I had not liked, on the strength of a Top Gear Review. It was a Jame May review, which perhaps meant it had a little more substance and I found my self thinking, wow that's exactly what I want from a car. Like the original PM said I've always gone for a car because I like it... So, FOR ME, 911's are poorly designed, with the engine in the back (and yes I know this is a Clarkson thing, but (and may I be shot down in flames for saying this) he's right) and the Boxster just didn't know whether it was coming or going and a bit um? Bland! But then along came A Spyder
I guess what I'm trying to add to this thread is that you should choose your cars, for yourself; read between the lines of the reviews and decide if it does it for you and if so bugger everyone else
I've been irritated by TopGear for at least the last two series (though still watch it!). I couldn't quite identify what was wrong with it until I got to school (I'm a teacher) one Monday, after a particularly crap episode and most of the 11/12 year old boys were raving about it. At that point I realised it wasn't made for 40+, balding, car enthusiasts.
The ironic thing is that I brought a Porsche, a car make that until that point I had not liked, on the strength of a Top Gear Review. It was a Jame May review, which perhaps meant it had a little more substance and I found my self thinking, wow that's exactly what I want from a car. Like the original PM said I've always gone for a car because I like it... So, FOR ME, 911's are poorly designed, with the engine in the back (and yes I know this is a Clarkson thing, but (and may I be shot down in flames for saying this) he's right) and the Boxster just didn't know whether it was coming or going and a bit um? Bland! But then along came A Spyder
I guess what I'm trying to add to this thread is that you should choose your cars, for yourself; read between the lines of the reviews and decide if it does it for you and if so bugger everyone else
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